Quality

[The Wild Rover]

Hello Fellow Rats,
I have not contributed to this forum for some time. I have been busy with my wife and son Stateside, and all work stops for me when I am with them. I work so much, and travel too much, so all the time I can spend with them is important, especially since my son is 14 months...I want him to know me. Sounds funny, but you look back and the time is gone, and I'll have an angry teenager. So this is what I would call good fortune.
I just returned from a small job. I had to go to XXXXXXXXX to complete the prep work for the upcoming electrical/security upgrade. I will take my family back to Europe, and return to XXXXXXXXX to complete the job. I will repair the so-called work performed there by numerous individuals over a period of several years. I will keep the place name quiet for security reasons. I will ask the same from the members, please. This is a professional courtesy.

Get Ready, because here it comes. I am so pissed off, and I am so tired of it, that I do not know where to start.
Article 110.12 of the National Electrical Code states that " Electrical equipment SHALL be installed in a neat and WORKMANLIKE manner".
This phrase means a lot to a talented, conscientious tradesman. His/her livelihood is what says I love my family, I love my job, and I love my Country...but it also says I am PROUD of my WORK!!! I am so proud, I want everyone that sees it, regardless if they are Electricians or not, to go...Wow, I don't know what that does, but it looks good enough to be in my home, or safe enough that my children would not get hurt.
I don't know where the men that installed the work (they were American electricians with clearances) learned how to do to this type of slop, but they should be banned from even performing the installation of a simple light switch as far as I am concerned.
The power was all screwed up, after going through a voltage regulator, the neutral had 53 volts to ground, the hot phase had 67 volts to ground, and 120 hot to neutral. In the past, the power for certain equuipment was lowered to 120volts from 220volts for certain purposes. The individuals wired the regulators incorrectly, resulting in multiple equipment failures over a long period of time. My tool buddy and I figured out in no short time the problem, and re-wired the situation, and came up with the proper method. That corrected one beast, the other is almost too funny to mention. These are Americans with clearances mind you, so it appears that some clown that worked as a helper now calls himself a "Journeyman" is beyond me. The wiring from panel #1 to panel #2, 20 feet away and within sight, was improperly phased on both ends. So now we have 120volts on the neutral bar to ground, and the neutral is termed at the breaker. Think long and hard about that one, as if I find out who you are, I will shame you. Somebody could have been killed, very easily. It only takes .25 milliamps to kill someone if the situations are correct. We'll keep it at 1/4 amp for the lay people in our audience.
Anyway, this presents a serious hazard, as the breaker does not protect the potential of a ground fault, or a short circuit, as there is no path of low impedance returning to the source of power. Think about this for a minute...there is no way to prevent an electrocutian hazard from happening. Would you want this guy to fix something in your house? No way! So why is this person working in our facilities overseas? I have seen this type of work a million times, and I am sick of it...but wait, there's more.
From panel #2, 2 circuits are sent to a pullbox overhead. From another panel(#3),nearby, another set of circuits is sent to the same pullbox, and both circuits are tied together in a joint to feed a circuit leaving the room. Both are at the same potential as both panels are fed from the same main phase. This resulted in a backfeed potential. When the main breaker in either panel was in the open(OFF) position, both panels were HOT!!! You gota be kidding me. This person should be backcharged, fined, and banned from all electrical work for life.
This is nothing compared to the horrible conduit work, sloppy equipment placement, and overall bad install. My wife could install work better. The "mechanics" couldn't use a conduit bender, so conduit bodies were used instead of proper bends. There were some bends, if you call them that. Conduit benduing is an ART, and a skill learned over many years. I have met many so called electricians, and they do not seem capable of even this. You should be able to install the equipment properly before you attempt circuitry. These people are known as slop artists, and should be kept off of every job we have. What a sad situation.
This was all fixed, so Mr. Sparky's work will not cause problems any more.
Here is where I get angry, and demanding. I believe all personell working in any trade must show proof of a proper apprenticeship, or equilavent training program, and prove that they are capable of doing the work. Contractors should be held liable for their hiring and work practices, and ensure that all product installed is a WORKMANLIKE manner, and safety is a great concern. How this project, like many more like it, have gone this far is a CRIME!!! They are stealing from America, and from trained and skilled tradesmen the work because they do not know what they are doing. This is wrong, and a dangerous practice, and it needs to stop. I believe everyone has a fair chance, but there should be a line drawn, where only the best represent our work overseas. I believe every contractor must present proof that they have skilled people employed. I believe the govt. reps that check this work be skilled, and knowlegable in the practice and CODES of the said trade. Sadly, this will not stop until we DEMAND it. To the people that installed this work in the country of XXXXXXXXX, I say shame to you. You are the reason, and the cause of so many accidents,deaths,and poor workmanship, and you need to be weeded out by the skilled, and the qualified. Lets face a few facts...sad facts. Many contractors are afraid or unable to get rid of these nit-wits because they have invested time and money getting them to the site. This is a wrongful excuse, but the one in use. I wish I had all the answers, or the solutions.
We can start by checking employee resumes. Sadly, many claim work that is not theirs. Many resumes pass my desk, and you would think the entire site was built by these people...and I know these people, and was present on the site when they were there working as a painter, and helped pull some cable, so now they are electricians...Journeymen too!!!
I say shame to the contractors, and you get what you pay for. Stop this shameful practice now.
See you all on the next big one. :cheers

[Expat]

You forgot to mention the three electrical fires they had in the past 6 months. The only way that kind of change will come about is if the customer mandates it. Write you Senators and Congressman :2cents

[Bontom]

I work with maintenance guys that don't know how to been conduit very well. They use condulets and jakes. Not very easy to pull wire through. That was one of the benefits for me being in a union. We do take pride in our work. During one's apprenticeship, we are taught how to bend pipe and wire up panels correctly and neatly. The life you save may be your own.
Just wait until you have to wear a blast suits for turning off and locking out a 480 disconnect.
Want to be a proud American also be a proud craftsmen.

[TheJester]

But they have to be electricians, they have it next to their names.
:lol:
I was on a job not to long ago, and I'm NOT making this up, their check to see if people were qualified electricians was asking them "can you or do you know how to pull wire?"

[mexfishguide]

Bro

Welcome to another Tirana, Albania. Except in Tirana all craft work is that bad and worse... No true journeyperson would ever do work as poor as I have seen here.

Believe me the post I put on about journeymen and helpers, etc has got to come to the """notice"""" of the powers that hire folks.

When I go on a project where I am told all the electricians running this work were qualified union electricians, and I see such pitiful craftsmanship I am really ashamed. :AR15


Either a person has a master license, jourmey person license, or can proof a 4 year inside apprenticeship, or they come onboard as a helper. No exeptions to do construction electrical work, you have to be a construction electrician. :blahslap

I know I know here you go again BOY.

Take Care
Mexfishguide :cheers

[roadhard]

Their are alot of qualified and very good electricians that do not Just come out of the union, Just because A guy may live in a right to work state and worked through the 4 year apprentiship on the road of becoming a journeyman does not mean a Union electrician is more qualified or a better craftsman. I agree 100%that There is and has been a real problem with the people that are out here representing americas craftspeople, But I just want to note that, Unions are not the only ones creating qualified craftspeople.
Roadhard

[TheJester]

I'm sure the Wild Rover was over VENTING a little in all that. I know he is pro pro PRO Union, but at the same time I'm sure he can say he has seen SOME guys out there do some work that is just as good, even though they are not Union.

I don't think this issue should be poluted into a Union/Non Union issue, that thread is somewhere else on here. I do agree though that "in a workmanlike and professional manner" is thrown FAR to the way side on a LOT if not MOST of the overseas job sites. I've also heard "can't see it from my house", "it's just pipe and wire", "as long as it gets from point A to point B", "just do whatever it takes to get it finished and finished by yesterday", etc, FAR TO MANY TIMES. Anyone that is on the Albanian project right now is dealing with all these problems. HELL, I'm currently fixing all the electrical crap that another AMERICAN was in charge of and only had his ELECTRICAL experience ON THIS JOB and whose previous employment was at a PIZZA restaurant.

One good thing about it is that by these people doing such crappy work, it is filling up my bank account rather nicely to be here and fixing it. :cheers

It sucks, and it is wrong, but for the most part any more, it is best to go into these projects, DUMB AS A ROCK. Just show up, put your tools on, and do WHATEVER they tell you to, as long as doing it WILL NOT HURT anyone, for the following reasons.

1. it is WAY less stressful
2. it pays the same either way
3. people that try to point it out and raise a stink over it become the targets of management thinking you are making waves rather than the ones doing the crappy work.
4. and MOST IMPORTANTLY: They'll pay you to put it in, they'll pay you to take it out, and they'll pay you to do it again.

Don't be mad at the people doing the crappy work you have to work around, be mad at the companies and management people that either don't know it is crappy, it costs a dollar to save a dime in doing things 3-4 times, or LET IT HAPPEN.

TheJester steps down from his soap box :rockwoot: Oh, and one more thing, Happy Birthday ROADHARD. :birthday

[mexfishguide]

Do not understand me bro, I am not saying 'union people' are the only recognized journeypeople in the electrical industry.

I said master or journey person, license or a 4 year appenticeship. I have no problem with union or non union. I just think unions have the better apprenticeship.

Not a bit of disrespect to non union folks. :2cents

Take Care
Mexfishguide :cheers

[The Wild Rover]

I do not begrudge a man/woman trying to make life better for their families, regardless of their affiliations. I have met good and bad on both sides of the union/non-union fence. I come from a strong union background, and will without a doubt say the IBEW education is the best, having done 2 apprenticeships, one with the IBEW, and another afterward for a different discipline of the electrical trade. This does not mean that the other programs are less, or unequal, it is just what I have seen, and experienced. What I am saying is that the tradespeople that work overseas, should be qualified, and that begins with an education, validation, accredidation, and a continuing education once journeyman level is attained. You should consider yourself fortunate to learn something new everyday. I am just disgusted at the people I have to compete with for a job, and at those that will take a lower wage, and call themselves journeymen...and not being able to do the job right the first time. Electricity is not for the timid, or the stupid! Being able to quote the National Electrical Code does not make you a qualified tradesman. The Code is not a teaching tool, it is for experienced tradesmen, to use as a guide on the rules, or laws set for for the SAFETY of people that may come into contact with the hazards of the electrical devices in use. This is serious business, and to make mistakes like the kind made referred to in my first post is a crime, and should not be taken lightly. I admit, we all make mistakes, and these are by far the best ways to learn sometimes, just not at the expense of someones life. And believe me, someone can get killed easily with electricity.

[Bontom]

But they have to be electricians, they have it next to their names.
:lol:
I was on a job not to long ago, and I'm NOT making this up, their check to see if people were qualified electricians was asking them "can you or do you know how to pull wire?"

Here is the real trick (anymore) Can you pull wire all by yourself? And when the nonelectrician turns on that breaker, I hope no one gets hurt.

[Bontom]

Their are alot of qualified and very good electricians that do not Just come out of the union, Just because A guy may live in a right to work state and worked through the 4 year apprentiship on the road of becoming a journeyman does not mean a Union electrician is more qualified or a better craftsman. I agree 100%that There is and has been a real problem with the people that are out here representing americas craftspeople, But I just want to note that, Unions are not the only ones creating qualified craftspeople.
Roadhard

There are other apprenticeships. ABC, which is anti-union, offers one.

[sph977]

to all here are my thought on the subject .i have met and worked with great non union and i have worked with nonunion that i would not let screw in a light bulb .me i am 11 years union and have had both good and bad union members working with me . i did the five year apprentiship ( sorry for ant misspelled words )but back to the topic . the new foreman that is replacing me is a joke and a bad one at that. today i was tell the duct worker foreman that he needed to move his duct cause there was only 24 inches in front of my panel . by code you need 30 inches of working space for width and 36 inches overall in front as per code 110.26(A)(1) and section (2) for width and the foreman for the duct was telling me he had a new duct that was not in and that he had to get it in and he was asking if he could run it in front of my panel up high just above the panel and i told him no cause code says you can not cause of the same rules and the one about headroom. that it needs to be clear . then the new foreman starts telling the duct foreman that it is fine as long as he is six inches above the panel which is wrong ( oh by the way the new foreman has no license me i have three licenses for the states of va. ,ca.,az.)so i go and look it up with the nec book we have on site photocopy the pages and he tells me that the book is wrong and he is right i just was in shock i cannt beleive he said this . this is the kind of guys they have on site and people wonder way these jobs are getting fu#$ed up . no disrespect to the people who are good they just dont have a license.but when some one take the time to show you you are right or wrong learn from it . it is the only way you learn if he was right i would have told him he was right and i would have learned something . but as it turns out he was wrong and did not want to learn from it .i hope he will not get some one hurt by doing dumb things . but if anything i have learned here in albania is that they have few good electricains and a lot of bad ones . :2cents :cheers

[mexfishguide]

Now you know why I set the foremen up I did! At least the first ones.

The HVAC duct foreman could not be the one I set up or could it? :moon

I wonder if the folks on that project really know why I drug up? I could see the nasty shit about to happen. Hitt is going down the same bad road they let MICI travel. Except now they have no one to blame it on. I talked to them until I was blue in the face and finally I said fuck them and the horse they rode in on. You were present when it finally came to an end. :rockwoot:

Get out of there boy and believe me you are a hell of a lot smarter then any of them jokers. I sent you a private message answer it before you leave please.

I may work stateside for awhile got a call to go as sr elec. super. same pay as I got there 60 to 70 hrs a week, but better per deim, 500 a mo car allowance + 40 cents a mile + + + :wtf

Anyway take Care

Mexfishguide :cheers

[mexfishguide]

Bro

I decided I am not going to get down to there level and even try to compete.

I know what I am worth and what a good wireman is worth and I will not lower my standards a dam bit. :rockwoot:

Non-union hands on an international job no problem?? if they make a hand.

I tell the companys what I will go for, if they do not like it, they can hire a truck load of inferior workers and get them self in large trouble. Then we can get decent wages to go fix the dam mess.

I have been IBEW for 50 years. It is the best program going, bar none. That is the way I was raised and continue to praise the livehood I derived from it.

Get off the soab box kid :blahslap

ok, ok, ok, o :rockwoot: k,

Take Care
- I gotta have a cool one to calm down.

Mexfishguide :cheers

[TheJester]

Kid Rock, song "Cocky", CD Title "Cocky"

"...they say I'm cocky
and I say whaaaaa?
It aint braggin mother fucker if you back it up..."

[whitts73]

to all here are my thought on the subject .i have met and worked with great non union and i have worked with nonunion that i would not let screw in a light bulb .me i am 11 years union and have had both good and bad union members working with me . i did the five year apprentiship ( sorry for ant misspelled words )but back to the topic . the new foreman that is replacing me is a joke and a bad one at that. today i was tell the duct worker foreman that he needed to move his duct cause there was only 24 inches in front of my panel . by code you need 30 inches of working space for width and 36 inches overall in front as per code 110.26(A)(1) and section (2) for width and the foreman for the duct was telling me he had a new duct that was not in and that he had to get it in and he was asking if he could run it in front of my panel up high just above the panel and i told him no cause code says you can not cause of the same rules and the one about headroom. that it needs to be clear . then the new foreman starts telling the duct foreman that it is fine as long as he is six inches above the panel which is wrong ( oh by the way the new foreman has no license me i have three licenses for the states of va. ,ca.,az.)so i go and look it up with the nec book we have on site photocopy the pages and he tells me that the book is wrong and he is right i just was in shock i cannt beleive he said this . this is the kind of guys they have on site and people wonder way these jobs are getting fu#$ed up . no disrespect to the people who are good they just dont have a license.but when some one take the time to show you you are right or wrong learn from it . it is the only way you learn if he was right i would have told him he was right and i would have learned something . but as it turns out he was wrong and did not want to learn from it .i hope he will not get some one hurt by doing dumb things . but if anything i have learned here in albania is that they have few good electricains and a lot of bad ones . :2cents :cheers

Hey David Whittaker here. Is this new forman the bald headed Greg they just brought back saying he knows all and everbody else's job as well. Watch your back with him. I have a few holes from when he was there before. I had to accept a lie about why he was removed from the job. Luckily nobody asked so I didn't have to pass the lie on. He is good buddies with Tracey and John so that will show you something as well. He was suppose to come back as safety, exactly what he was removed from before.
Good luck till you leave. I know you have your hands full. Talked with Zane this morning. He and I are just amazed at the stupidity.
David.

[mexfishguide]

Guys

I talked to the Hitt main office this afternoon, I can not believe those folks have their heads buried in the sand...!!! :banghead

Are, like the site avitar the head is somewhere else, burried, like in their arse.

Some one tell me, that whole company, is not a group of retards?

When you have a special projects Manager- on site ordering material :wtf
give me a break.

Dave and I spent an hour or so talking concerning the project and how we tried to help, I came out of the conversation just shaking my head, and I am sure he did also. :doh

For you guys on site, RE - the crane to set the regulators in the basement. the man across the street decided he was going to backcharge the cost of the crane to the men because the units were not set inside!!!!!!

I said in one of my conversations to him,- I ask the guys to continue and get the units out of the road and they did, it was pouring down rain and the guys got soaking wet doing it. Not a word of thanks from anyone but me. I do not think he understood we could not open the electrical gear to the downpour....

You folks that are still there get the money, utI have told you before the man across the street was paying one man full per diem and no he was not in supervision, I would ask him about this if I were you folks.

dam here we go again get the hell off that dam soap box :rockwoot:

Take care
Mexfishguide :cheers