Craft qualification license

[mexfishguide]

I have talked to several people about this subject, and it has been kicked around on this site quite a bit, in the past. We are loosing work and have a bad taste in some "mouths" over the quality of work. We need to do what we can to improve the quality on our production, and the attitude of some folks. When you sign a contract to work for someone, then get on site and set around on your butt ! and watch the locals fumble around trying to do the work you are hired to do ? We all know this happens, this is not right. The contractors see this and figure hell i may as well forget the expat folks, and man with locals... "I ASK A QUESTION HERE"? Do you bros think we can set up on our site a place for workers to be listed, that is available only to the counsel and hiring firms on our site??? A person sends in proof of serving and
completing an approved apprenticeship, proof of a journeyman (person), are proof of a master craftsman, by way of a state license, maybe proof of a college degree in a construction related program.. Along with proof of years in that craft. Then if a firm asks about a person, we can reply with the above facts. This info would be in the form of a short cover letter, 1 page only.

Before you decide to hang me at sun up, are shoot me on site - :AR15
thank about this, it could be a way to employ more of our craftsmen..??!!

Take care
Mexfishguide

Proud to be an american craftsman.:fauches:

[jeavalanche]

sorry but alittle hung over this morning. :cheers
i agree with mexfish, about the work being done by locals, but to prove how good you are at what you do by a liciense or by beeing in a union, i dont know. i know theres alot of people that try to bullshit there way in, and once there in they kiss ass and get what they want, goes for every craft. ive been in construction for over 15 years as an operator-concrete worker ive done alot and seen alot, met lots of good people. but like i said in earlier post here in colorado the union has no pull, it has died off except for electrians, and iron workers. i havent really seen a labor union for ever out here. i know companies have there own training and certs, but it doent do anyone any good when you switch companies. and i dont have time or the money to drop every thing and go work in another state to obtain a liecnse or cert so i can say i belong in a certain group -ieg. "operators union" or what ever. ive always worked my ass off and got paid good for it, i think thats how it should be. i think your liciense or cert should be on a probation period no matter how long a week or 6 months, lets see how well you do your job and how much you want to work for what your getting payed. its simple lets see what you got, you dont perform get out, you do your job and good get the money your worth. i do agree with electrians and they should be liecened and insured, for they got alot on there hands, look what happend in iraq?, still reading about it. but thats more of a managment problem than anything, lots of good guys out there doing what they have to???. so what im saying is it very hard for me to get a liecnse or cert here in colorado, and i dont think i should be concidered any differnt from somebody that has a cert but cant perform.

ps i read it over again when i sobber up alittle

j
:blahslap

[Megga Watt]

Great Idea Mexfish, but as I see it, it will be very hard to enforce for allot of us old timers. I for one have had a Masters Lic for over 30 years now but can't get a State lic in Texas now. When I applied for my grandfather license I found 90% of the companies no longer exist and all my work has been overseas. No one tracks overseas workers so what do we do?? I myself have all but stopped working, I try to work only a few months out of the year but it doesn’t make me any less qualified than someone that just graduated from Mike Holts electrical school. Personally I really think it would be one hell of a undertaking to even try to confirm all of everyone’s qualifications, and then try to guarantee they are who they say they are. You are setting yourself up for one hell of a lawsuit if someone you reefer gets someone killed through stupid laziness, and believe me it happens

[Justus]

I also don't like the idea, for the reasons stated by the others. I like helping brothers and sisters find work, but on an information share-and-exchange between individuals, as the site was envisioned and developed. It's not up to RatPack to certify anyone or check licenses and credentials or give recommendation or CVs to companies. Sure, we can have CVs posted and the member companies can look them over--that's a huge difference than actually recommending and sending CVs as a company. Too much liability.

We've talked about developing "black lists" on here before but it was clear that wasn't the path for the site to go down either. If I can pass on info, good or bad, about a person I will. I've done it many times. But I've done it as ME, not as RatPack.

I'm all for helping more of our member get more work but I personally think this is the wrong road. I also don't know the right road. Yes, we get lots of wannabees on our jobs and lots of "overstated" people...but it's up to the company to check them out. If a bad one gets through, yes it affects us; but that's business, just like every other business in the world.

[jeavalanche]

i have alot to say on this subject, but i would probally get kicked off. this could go into so many differnt ways. all i say is "kick me where it hurts", hire me for my skills not the piece of paper i carry around in my wallet.

[Longrider]

Does anyone here know anything about this Balfour Const. Company from Senegal? They're offering employment on my e-mail saying they saw my resume on militaryhire. I suspect anything out of Africa is bogus, any info would be appreciated.
Thanks, Longrider

[TheJester]

i have alot to say on this subject, but i would probally get kicked off.As long as you're honest and don't go after HeadRat like some schmuck did a long time ago, you're pretty free to speak.

I'm split on the above topic though. As I'm sure a lot of you have as well, I've seen people with all the training and know how in the world, be worthless pieces of crap that can carry a qualification card around with them.
I've also seen others that worked their tails off and didn't have a lick of paperwork other than a resume to back it up.

[Justus]

Longrider--you'd probably get more responses if you start a new thread for questions like this, instead of hijacking an existing thread.

Just hit the red "Forum" button in the header bar, then find and click on the forum you think your question best fits, and finally hit the "New Thread" button on the left side.

[Longrider]

Longrider--you'd probably get more responses if you start a new thread for questions like this, instead of hijacking an existing thread.

Just hit the red "Forum" button in the header bar, then find and click on the forum you think your question best fits, and finally hit the "New Thread" button on the left side.

Didn't mean to hijack anything, just not as computer savvy as some here obviously are. I couldn't find a place to ask the Q so I will go now and take the RED button:) BTW, relative to the topic of discussion. I am a power generator expert, I really, really do know WTH I am doing AND why I am doing it, but I have only worked with one other man overseas who knew generators. A few (not many) knew diesel engines very well, or at least a modicum of knowledge, but they knew NOTHING about the AC systems or controls. A criticism once about putting a (gen-tech) to work with me got the response (SO!! I make the same money as you do!!) The light came on upstairs and I think I will now include in my resume that I designed the Space Shuttle and the Voyager mission to mars since it appears that a man's actual ability is of no importance in overseas government contracting. What DOES appear to be the most important criteria now overseas is one's ETHNICITY! who thought that word up anyway? Going for the red button now.

[Longrider]

Justus, No offense was taken as I am sure none was intended. Don't forget to add you invaluable assistance on the Voyager Mars project:)

[Justus]

Correct, none was intended, just trying to help you get a better response.

LOL--my CV now reads that I helped design Voyager!!

[mexfishguide]

It was not my intent to reccomend anyone as "rat Pack", but was talking about a way we could show qualification training to the contractors. Not to guarantee any persons qualifications are ability to perform. When we get on site in some shit hole 3rd word country, trying to do a job, and here comes some so called journeymen electricians / plumbers, etc. to help you - but they can neither fit, thread, cut, are bend ridgid pipe, what the hell are we supposed to do with them???? Most guys will say, to hell with them, let the company management worry about it. But when it comes down to the nut cuttin you are grouped with the overall crew production & quality of work. As a craftsman, I do my best to seperate myself, from this type of worker, and
do my job. But when I am told to, do what you can to help "" so & so " learn how to do the work, then I get upset because, we are both classified the same and draw the same pay...:wtf As an electrician, most places in the usa, require proof of license and qualifications, before you can work there. Keep in mind welders have to be certified and have to re-certify ever so often and when changing firms & job locations!! If they do not pass the certification test, they do not work. As far as making sure a person belongs to this union are that union, not what I am talking about. Your choice is your choice, and you have to live by it. :rockwoot: There is no way to inforce any policy on overseas work, but the company sends people overseas and you are supposed to train them along with the local workforce, that is bull shit. Myself, I have 2 degrees in electrical engineering, served a full 4 year apprenticeship, and am an unlimited master electrician both ship & shore. Plus class A unlimited HVACR. I never mind proving my background to any one.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

Proud to be an American craftsman.

[The Wild Rover]

I agree with Justus, we should not be involved wether or not the person is qualified to work on that project. That is for the contractors and OBO... however, I will say that you should have accredited, certified training before you walk on the job. Having that piece of paper shows me that someone took the time to teach you, and that you passed an accredited examination. What you do with that after you have that paper is up to you. When I hire a guy, at least I know what I am getting. I don't want "shade tree Mechanics" or junkyard welders, or handymen... or some shmo that worked as a Frito Lay truck driver, then knew somebody and got hired on the Beijing Embassy Project as a helper, now calls himself a Journeyman Electrician...I see lots of resumes, this is a common practice. I want a known commodity. You get that at least with that certificate, liscense, and training. OBO now requires our guys to have accredited apprenticeships or equivalent training and certification. Telecommunication technicians are required to have BICSI or equivalent certification. They want to see them, we have to attach their resumes and certificates to every proposal and project. I hope they do this on all projects.

[dtross]

You guys are right about having trade certifications to show that you at least have been fundamentally trained and at least have the theory to have a clue what's going on, like the Frito Lay truck driver, I have met a couple individuals that barely knew what country we were in none the less what he was supposed to be doing onsite. I am in telecom but met a guy during some embassy work that painted houses but somehow was "qualified" to put up sheetrock, run copper, fiber and power wires and all of a sudden he said he was going to put that he was a telecom tech on his resume because he was allowed to terminate these cables, I asked him what his trade was and his reply was 'general helper" and e has done this on a few projects. I don't have anything against someone wanting to learn a trade but do it the right way. When people ask how can the get into telecom I tell them to look up Bicsi and go from there.

[mexfishguide]

Agree are disagree, :fauches: at least this subject has fired up some interest and comments. I enjoy different people opinion's. I understand the not able to get a new / current license, so many companys I have worked for are gone!!!! I also understand the folks opposed to the idea, yes, guys at times get a license that they are not qualified to have, and people get a UNION JOURNEYMAN membership, by paying for it, no training at all, just know the right people & have the money. When I am interviewing folks, ( they can put what they want on their resume),I have a simple statement for them - you go on the job, and can not do the work, we will know in a short time, then we will send you home!!!! Like the old saying - you can't get it, you can't stay. Every one should keep in mind, your reputation follows you all over the world - A person with an outstanding record & reputation, can sometimes get hired, even if the firm is -not hiring-.

Take Care
Mexfish:cheers

Proud to be an american craftsman......

[HeadRat]

This subject always seems to ignite posts one way or the other, just like Union/Non-Union.

[Javabear]

I'm in favor of licensing and certifications. I a licensed Journeyman Electrician stateside. The test was a bitch but I made it through. On the other side of that coin I've known some damn fine electricians that couldn't pass the test and they have told me that it is harder for them to find work sometimes because they don't have the card.

[iaef]

When your trade demands that you work as much with your hands as you do with your brains, then certification is essential. It gives potential employers an instant indicator that at least you once knew how, even if you no longer do. 20 or 30 years of trade practice is fine for those that know you but useless to those that don't. You may very well be a Muppet. A trade license is at the very least a ticket that allows you on the stage.

[Gabriele]

I have many certifications in the telecom world, also many showing that I was schooled in the old Ma Bell days (pre certification days), but what isn't shown is how good I am on the systems or poor.

I keep digital copies to send to potential employers if requested and list them on my resume/CV along with some of the projects I've worked on.

I've seen guys with great sounding resumes but poor skills. Not sure about the electrical world, but though telecom shares basic skills (wiring, etc), there are different systems that require different knowledge/skills.

I have seen some job boards that do have a place to prove your certifications too.

I can go either way on this.

[mictraveler]

As an overseas business owner who hires and staffs large projects my take on the certification issue is that at the end of the day it’s bogus just like the resume. I don't care if someone is stating all the certifications in the world and a resume that includes many successful projects. I think that the overall Rat Pack stigma that has surrounded the Rat Pack hires is one of Lazy, Overpaid and Prima donna. Bottom line is the business is changing I and everyone hiring at this time will and is slowly but surely create lists of true qualified professionals regardless of their so called qualifications and certifications. Better method and approach is picking your ass up and work. Because at the end of the day someone is watching that will want to use you on a future project if you produce. Quality and Production will drive the market. Sadly it’s overseas that we see many of the world’s worst craftsmen and workers leeching of taxpayer dollars. Current list of people that I would hire or recommend is very short. That is why we pull our manpower not from the seeking overseas employment list but rather from construction sites throughout the US. This is going to be a trend that will push many of the "weekend" construction workers out of business. The business is changing and the days of being able to milk the system are going to be gone. The person fresh out of military, school, retirement or "has clearance" will be experiencing a amazing beginning called Apprenticeship under a new guard, TRUE TRADESMAN and WORKERS not a middle age man who teaches them how to hide from working or responsibility who has it figured out how to last this project and move onto the next. Last year 32 projects and 7 future employees, that is sad if you take the sheer number of workers who I personally watched and would consider prospective employees.

There is more people standing in line to get in this line of work then you can count.

And sorry building a house or wiring your own alarm system does not qualify you.

For those that are willing to work hard and earn a living more power to you and hope to see you in action sometime. If I do you will surely go on my list as a future employee. We pay higher then any other company in the business and it comes with full perdiem. But you will earn every penny of it. I intentionally not posting contact info because I will not hiring anyone without a recommendation from someone who I value their judgement or seeing you work myself.

[The Wild Rover]

Regardless of whether or not you like certifications...I'd like to see your hard working painter put in 4" rigid and then terminate the 380V to 240V transformer following the 2008 NEC... it can't be done, I don't care how well he sands that wall, or how much you pay him. You need to have qualified tradesmen, that are skilled in their craft. You can weed out the chaff, as the owner you have that right...and just because you pay the highest and full per diem, it does not make you a great contractor. What makes you a great contractor is hiring the qualified and skilled workforce. Sure, you'll get some bad apples. It's a two way street. One bad job and you are in the hole just like the rest of the riff raff. It happens all the time. What it does make you is blind to the fact that a skilled tradesman, in his craft, can do the work properly the first time in an expiedient manner, if you hire the right people. You do have the right idea, though, of finding the right guys for you... That's how you make money. I see lots of contractors that hire guys based on "He really is a great carpenter"...but he cannot install and weld an FEBR door, install and wire SHW or UFAS door, Install a transformer or program the TSS panels, or install a fire alarm system because he is not certified on the Cerberus system. I agree with you, however, that there are a ton of guys out there that have worked on way too many projects and have caused more damage than production...but you cannot label the entire workforce as Lazy, over paid and prima donna. Just my thought. I don't think all contractors are money grubbing thieves and self promoting assholes.:2cents

P.S. This is one reason why the users of this site... well at least the ones that post, need to keep their real name off the site, and use a nickname or abstract username to identify yourself. You never know who is reading these posts, it could be a contractor, lurking, or posting as a worker. Protect yourself.

[Gabriele]

Sure you're a huge business man, doesn't believe in certifications and all, last embassy project I was going to the OBO made the company have their telcom guy BICSI certified, so your customer may be interested in the certifications even if your not.

[Megga Watt]

As an overseas business owner who hires and staffs large projects my take on the certification issue is that at the end of the day it’s bogus just like the resume. I don't care if someone is stating all the certifications in the world and a resume that includes many successful projects. I think that the overall Rat Pack stigma that has surrounded the Rat Pack hires is one of Lazy, Overpaid and Prima donna.

To Mr. big business owner, yes it is good you do not include your contact info because we too have a list of good and bad employers.
Yes I am one of those middle aged Rat pack members, and I enjoy my trade and have for over 30 years. You however sound like one of those HB Zachary hands that never had a trade just jumped in and screwed things up so us middle aged certified Rat pack prima donnas can come behind you and fix what you and your uncertified hands screw up. There is a fine line between people that have worked all their lives and are proud of every job we have accomplished and those uncertified hands that do not know what pride in a job well done is, no matter how hard or fast they work. Yes we do understand the company has to make a profit but so do we, which is why I for one went overseas. I worked for Brown and root for many years before they became KBR, Which is when I quit working for them. Since then I have seen a huge decline in the quality of the business owner. I think before anyone becomes a business owner they should be certified in at least one of the trades before being allowed to even bid on a job. The problem is not all the workers on Rat Pack it is the greedy companies that are constantly ripping off their employees, cutting corners because they don't want to spend the money or just don't know how due to lack of certifications. Yes this is a double edged sword that can cut both ways. So before you start cutting down all of Rat pack, start looking in your own back yard for someone who doesn’t know how to hire the proper certified tradesmen. :wtf

[mictraveler]

I agree that you have to have certified installers but just because FDI comes out and hands you a piece of paper after 16 hours installing a FEBR door wrong doesn't mean the certification is worth the paper it’s written on. Or that back in the T&M days RDR gave you a class on how to terminate and install TSS systems. I am speaking about a person who is motivated to earn his next job. A person who realizes that we are really a blessed breed of construction workers. We get paid to work all around the world and paid well I might add. I fully agree that qualifications are important because you do not want the form carpenter terminating your fiber or high voltage. But if I have to hire a certified installer to perform work then I will pick the certified installer that doesn't have a problem picking up a broom at the end of the day and cleaning.

All the large general contactors have issues getting a crew in their CAA that is not trying to hide there as soon as their supervisor walks out. Having worked with many "carpenters" that couldn't read a speed square or "tss" guys who could not decipher and employ a point to point drawing.

I am not knocking the guy who has the certification but rather the guy who has the certification and believes it is the end all to his/her employment. The certified person who sits in the corner reading his newspaper until 1000 then takes a 2 hour lunch before starting back up at 1300 with the mentality that they skated and are proud of it because they were able to hide in the space as long as they did. For the hard workers that have work ethic and pride in their work this is offensive and when I see a 60 year old electrician who has the certification work circles around a 30 year old with the certifications this makes me realize that the work ethic we as Americans were tough and forced to adhere to when we went through the days with a old man screaming that if your not hanging conduit pick up a broom and clean. You give an honest days labor for an honest days pay whether it’s pushing a broom or walking an inspection with OBO.

There is guys on here who work there ass off and there are guys that do not just like everything there is bad and good.

I am not saying Rat Pack is bad just saying were has a tradesman’s pride in earning their money went. If the work force has slipped because of the Beijing hires (and other sites) that didn't have any experience then that is the fault of the employers not the workers. But if a person is certified after 16 hours installing a FDI or Ross FEBR product then claims to be certified they are full of shit because it takes time and experience to be a true professional at a trade. The big kicker is a very common joke for the true tradesman when a labor lays down the broom and helps the tradesman by turning the handles on the duct jack because the HVAC doesn't have the ability to reach it from the top of his ladder. The next time the labors resume comes out he is an experienced HVAC guy. This is common overseas because people get away with it job after job due to the system being so overwhelmed with under qualified people from the Business owner who doesn't know one end of a hammer from the other to the laborer who learned from another person on his first job that the best place to hide was out back between the containers smoking and joking all day. This is giving the real tradesman a bad name because this job has always been about networking and always will be. But as it changes and the good tradesman that works his ass off are allowed to choose the people he works with the network is going to get tighter so that the tradesman doesn't have to carry the dead weight.

Wild Rover you are absolutely correct in saying certifications are necessary and that we can't have sanders installing electrical or another technical task and that the responsibility for the lower standards fall entirely on our back as employers for allowing them to drop so low. But the installer that welds a FEBR door should be kicked of site because in doing so they ruined a new door. Or the Carpenter that wires up a tss system wrong destroying the 1076 should be driven of also. FDI can certify a local hire after 16 hours does that make the local hire a better installer then the carpenter who has installed FEBR doors over the last 10 year with no certification?

I am not labeling the workforce here on Rat Pack but rather pointing out the label that many are referring to in meetings around the world when manpower issues arise it has become a common question "is he a rat pack guy". Now I do not agree with this because I have many friends and past colleagues that are on here and they are great workers/tradesman. Unfortunately the reality is that jobs like the one in Juarez, Mumbai, or another half dozen around the world are perfect examples of what people are saying. No not just the tradesman but also the management.

I would like the level of CAW to be at or above that of the typical American tradesman. Unfortunately you can take a Construction worker from overseas and put him on a job in the states and all he will be is a labor because his habits have allowed him to skate for so long that he has lost the work ethic that goes with the skills. For those that are truly adaptable either side of the ocean more power to you. Remember someone back home is sweating their ass off paying taxes so that OBO, contractors, and workers overseas can milk them dry with ongoing projects. Typical embassy 3 years to build. This is 3 times typical time it takes in the states. There are a million reasons for this and they can be traced back all the way to the bid process but also down to the last 3 months of a job when everyone on the ground is scrambling to find the next one and slows down.

We have seen a huge interest in overseas work and we all know that the market has been flooded with people who want into this line of work. The jobs are going to get fewer and further between because the pool to draw from is so much bigger. Isn't it in the tradesman’s best interest to set the standard so high that some rookie with the million certifications cannot come in and take your job? You can make certificates on a computer but you cannot duplicate a person’s work ethic that comes with those certificates.

If your wages, perdiem and a large bonus were being decided by production and quality don't you think that the jobs would be better paying and attract top notch tradesman/workers? Why is there such a difference between the General Contractors CAWs (not all!) and the Lindgren workers? Because they are production orientated to finish, pass inspection and move to the next one with incentives. Or everyone can just sit back and watch as BL Harbert and others continue to drop wages and cut your MI&E to nothing. Guess at some time the workers have to put their foot down and say we are not going on that job; problem is that there is ten more certified but not qualified individuals that will fill the spaces taking away your jobs.

8 years ago after seeing the wages continue to fall a group of overseas workers myself included decided that we were no accepting jobs that paid under X amount and that the contactor was not going to steal our MI&E. Within 3 months after that all but a few had sold out and went to work for sliced wages, MI&E and poor living conditions. This was because the contractors were finding the bottom of the barrel and filling their manpower needs.

The responsibility to change this is not just on workers shoulders but also on employer’s shoulders. CAA spaces are being subcontracted out to new companies with their own work force. Why because the contractors winning the jobs cannot put together a work force that makes them money. Previously American performed tasks are being performed by local workers including the executive floor. Because it’s cheaper to put supervisors over them that know what they are doing to maintain quality and meet specifications. I don't like seeing this happen and am trying to change this image that the contactors have by pushing hard working qualified men/women to demonstrate to the big contractors that there is still no better work force then that of the United States. It’s just very difficult to push when I am trying to sell the American work force and we walk into a room with three guys sitting having a "rest". How do I explain to the top level management of my prospective client that this is not the normal? All I have to do is take the same person to rural America and walk onto a job for him to see the difference between the two workforces. For those who didn't work themselves through the rank from the broom pusher to the truly qualified professional tradesman this is hard to explain. But to all those who did do the time and paid with sweat, aches, and pains they can understand and probably are a little pissed off also about the person who bypassed the right of passage.

For those that are hard working tradesman I hope you understand what I am saying and realize you are truly appreciated. And to those who are just starting out at the bottom of the ladder remember that a qualified construction worker is a combination of experience, ability, and work ethic no one is trying to stop you at the bottom but rather should be leading and teaching you by example the skills and work ethic that are needed to be successful in construction no matter the location. Even though my daily tasks have changed I am constantly reminded by the calluses on my hands of were I came from and how I got here along with thousands of other expats who worked their way to a better life many of who are on this site.

Not a big bad business owner just a man trying to make a living and change the image we as overseas workers and business owners have aquired.

[mexfishguide]

Guys, you have brought some good facts to light. Rover, & mictraveler bring up some good points, most of you know how I feel about this subject, as I have said in the past. When your hired as a craftsman, when you arrive on site it is expected you work & perform as such. Your not hired to set on your butt and watch the locals do, are try to do, your work, most of these people are basic helpers at the most. I truly believe 90% of true craftsmen enjoy their trade and are proud to work at it, and that they will do so under the proper conditions. Tradesmen like to do their work and only need minimum directions, however they do need the proper tools , materials, & management to do so. If an on site superintendent, is not a trained craftsman how will he/she, know if work is installed right, plus if they do not stand behind the worker, the worker see's no support. Which is no good for the project or workforce. Remember read your contract before you sign it and do what you were hired for, most of the time it is perform the work of your craft.

Take care
mex fish guide:cheers

A proud american craftsman

[Javabear]

I for one am tired of having employers think that they pay better than everyone else so they think they own you. I've been overseas in combat zones for almost 5 years now and I don't mind working. I'm a licensed journeyman electrician and I've dug my share of ditches and swept my share of floors and I'll do it again if the need arises. I don't put up with the ownership attitude and I have yet to find difficulty getting another job. I've got a good reputation and I earned it. As someones signature here says, "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys."