WHY no FULL PER DIEM??? [Archive] - Rat Pack International, the FIRST and ONLY Overseas Workers Forum

Justus

09-17-05, 08:44 AM

Hi, I've got a few comments to add to this thread. I know some won't agree with it, but that's ok.

First of all, before we go lumping all of these jobs into one group, we must realize there are different types of contracts. Most NEC's are LUMP SUM. This means the contractor bids a flat price for completing the NEC to the RFP requirements, no more, no less. The bid price is what the gov't pays the contractor, no more, no less (not counting change orders). If the contractor can finish the job for less money or quicker than planned--he just earned himself extra profit. If he goes over on budget or takes longer to complete--he just dipped into his "budgeted profit" or even into his own coffers. On these LUMP SUM contracts, there is no requirement for the contractor to bid (or pay) employee expenses per the gov't rates. Just think about this--if a contractor had to pay gov't per diems, that would mean that if a project was mis-managed and went longer than contract time--the gov't would have to pick up the difference. It would also mean that minimum pay scale would be in use, even for local the TCN hires. We all know that will never happen.

Another type of contract is COST PLUS (or COST RE-IMBURSIBLE as it's now called). This is were the contractor gives a price they hope to achieve at contract's end. But it is not binding. The contract submits reciepts for all materials and certified payrolls for all labor. The gov't then pays these plus a fixed percent that is set in the contract. It doesn't matter how long or how much the contract spends, he will make money on that added percentage. That is how using the gov't per diem rates came up--the contractor saw he could make even more money using the govt's own rates! There are some variations on COST PLUS contracts, like Guarentteed Max Price, but you still see the idea here.

These are some of the reasons more and more gov't groups (OBO, Corps, Navy, etc) are switching to LUMP SUM contracts versus COST PLUS type contracts. Much liability is passed onto the contractor and the gov't agency is in a better position to lock in the money with Congress. The agency knows he will only spend the contract amount (excluding change orders--they are a discussion by themselves), even if the job runs way over budget or past contract completion date. That is also a reason most of these gov't agencies are going one step further and going to Design-Build contracts instead of Bid-Build. The government wants out of the liability business and some day I see them being completely there.

OK, now....most NEC's are lump sum--the contractor does not have to bid or pay gov't rates. Most Iraq jobs are cost-plus (although the new NEC is on the street as lump sum) and the contractor should pay per diem using the published rates. That's why KBR flies all their guys business class to and from Afganistan and Iraq--they are allowed to do so by contract and are making more money in doing so. Some jobs (Sao Paulo being one of them) was under some program OBO has where a large contractor takes a small, disadvantaged, or minority company under it's wing and does the job together (in theory). These jobs are a cost-plus style and the contractor can't lose money.

So that's all I want to say--just know that all contracts are not created equally and shouldn't all be lumped together.

And as far as bitching about this contract or that contract--if we don't like the contract, negociate! If we can't get the contract where WE want it (single housing, an acceptible per diem, business-class travel, etc)--don't sign up! I think a lot of the time we, as a group, think the contractors are trying to screw us. Just remember they can't screw us if we don't let them! If you don't like the terms of the contract, don't take the job--simple as that.

HeadRat

09-17-05, 10:07 AM

Justus, you make a lot of valid points, however it seems odd to me that there is even a per diem rate then? Where does the amount to the worker come from? How do they decide what they will pay in per diem? Then where do the other contractors come in at, that ALWAYS fly business class or full per diem?

I understand the margin basis and making a buck, but I also understand that where you can make a buck, you can always make a 'little' bit more.

My last point, I know for a fact there is a company that doesn't do a thing with the work itself. Here is what they do:

They have man power (Contractor A), they get in contact with contractors that need man power (Contractor B). Contract A says I'll give you 5 electricians at $980/day. Contractor B accepts. Contract A goes to his people and says "would you like to go to Eutopia for $30/hr and $200/day?" The workers say yes, sign contracts, and go through the process. That is 980/day/person coming in, then $500/day/person at cost, leaving a profit of $480/day/person that the worker is there.

How does this relate? Well, if Contractor B can spend $980/day/person from Contractor A, why can't that money just be sent down to the worker directly? How does that relate to which kind of contract a contractor has because I doubt they can change which kind it is midstream. I only know this because of talking to people that are dealing with a major NOB builder and their lack of telecommunication installers. Then talking with people that are working directly for the contractor NOT getting the full per diem or even MORE per diem.

If that example doesn't fit, what about another contractor that just LOWERED it's per diem and hourly rate on a CURRENT job that has been going on? Did their contract change with the government?

Justus

09-17-05, 11:55 AM

I think the per diem is a carry-over from the cost-plus contracts and the contractors realized it was a selling point (not being taxed unless there a year or more). The amount that goes to the worker is at the sole descretion of the contractor. He can pay full, more than full, or no per diem at all. Why do some lump sum contractors use business class? Good question, I don't have any idea other than again, a selling point. Unless it's a cost-plus job, they are not obligated by contract to do it.

In the example you give, maybe the general contractor just wants to relieve himself of some liability also, just like the gov't is doing. But again, if it's a lump sum contract, the general is under no contractual obligation to pay any per diem, period. I used to have a copy of the FARs that regulate gov't contracting; it's buried in there somewhere, I remember finding it one time. I don't have it with me (in transit somewhere) or I would dig and quote it.

As for the contractor lowering his rate and per diem on an on-going job--my same reply as before--we don't have to let them do it to us. If we don't like it, don't sign it. Let the contractor hire what he can at that price and let him see what he gets. You know he will be able to hire for that amount, he always will be able to. Hopefully some of the contractors will realize the difference in production and quality of production between the two.

HeadRat

09-17-05, 01:32 PM

Exactly my point, the per diem rates are at the discretion of the contractor, why is that when they are charging the government for full per diem?

Justus

09-18-05, 01:12 AM

HR, I think you missed my main point--in lump sum contracts, the contractor is not charging the gov't for full per diem. He has a fixed price for the work. If he even tried to submit (X number of days @ full per diem per CLUS = $xx), the PD would laugh at him and reject the pay request without looking any further. The contractor only gets paid for work in place and stored materials until they are installed (then they become installed work). That's it. He cannot bill for travel, apartments, food, per diem, or any incidentals.

TheJester

09-18-05, 10:12 AM

I'm going for an outside sources investigation, I don't know about anyone else. I've seen people ask, and I've seen company reps give answers, I, personally, want an independant investigation because I have been lied to, screwed, and messed with enough by companies.

HeadRat

09-18-05, 10:42 AM

that's all I'm asking for, an outside source. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I'm not putting it past the contractors to pull some tricky crap. Hell, anyone remember the headlines of Halliburton over pricing the Gov for 1 BILLION dollars in fuel bills?

117 views in one week of being posted, 12 replies, at least the word and question is getting out.

mdkatz39

09-26-05, 06:10 AM

Exactly my point, the per diem rates are at the discretion of the contractor, why is that when they are charging the government for full per diem?

Because they can get away with it and there is not a lot we can do about it except decline thier offers.

I was Vice President of Construction and Project Management for a Small Business Administration (SBA) 8a (Minority) Construction Company for 8 years. I am going from memory now so I may not be 100% acurate. You could get a copy of the FAR on line (WWW.amet.gov/far) All Govt.Contracts are governened by the Federal Aquition Regulations (FAR). The FAR states that all Empolyees working Overseas MAY be paid the Scheduled Per Diem as indicated in the Per Diem and these rates are included in the Bid price for all Projects. The Per Diem Schedule also states that this is the minimum rate and the Contractor can pay as much as 300 % of the scheduled amount. Here is an section that most Contractors are using to get around paying the full boat of Per Diem..........

31.205-46 Travel costs.
(a) Costs for transportation, lodging, meals, and incidental expenses.

(1) Costs incurred by contractor personnel on official company business are allowable, subject to the limitations contained in this subsection. Costs for transportation may be based on mileage rates, actual costs incurred, or on a combination thereof, provided the method used results in a reasonable charge. Costs for lodging, meals, and incidental expenses may be based on per diem, actual expenses, or a combination thereof, provided the method used results in a reasonable charge.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3) of this subsection, costs incurred for lodging, meals, and incidental expenses (as defined in the regulations cited in (a)(2)(i) through (iii) of this paragraph) shall be considered to be reasonable and allowable only to the extent that they do not exceed on a daily basis the maximum per diem rates in effect at the time of travel as set forth in the Federal Travel Regulations........

The operative word here is MAY pay.......there is no strict reg that says MUST pay.......that is how the Contractors are getting around paying us what they have or don't have in their Contract.......When I was active in the administration of fair treatment of employees I always made sure they got what I had in my estimate.....the owner of the Company , a minority, did not agree with me and that is why I no longer work for him.......let's face it, the only reason we work overseas is to make better money. The Tax free Per Diem is a great insentive to work overseas in some of these hell holes and put up with the crap that most of these Contractors put out.....I have said my piece and that's that........

HeadRat

09-26-05, 04:58 PM

TheJester

09-26-05, 05:09 PM

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but to me it sounds like it is even worse than we thought. Barring the "FAR", a contactor could essentially BID a project at 300% the per diem rate or at LEAST 1 times the rate, but only pay either the rate or less than. ???

So, in my mind, in all respects, when we "negotiate" a contract, we should be negotiating our PER DIEM rates, rather than our hourly rate, as they have more of a profit margin to play with in that area.

Seems to boarder on missappropriations of funds if a company pockets ANY of the per diem it is bidding into a job.

I'm confused on the "at LEAST" the rate statement because that is NOT happening.

mdkatz39

09-27-05, 08:27 AM

MDKATZ, good to have you here, but I still am a little confused, maybe using your former position you can answer it.

You make a lot of good points, but it seems that it still leaves it open to bid one thing and pay another, yeah?

You are absolutely correct........when you bid a job and have to justify your bid to the Govt. you include the prevailing wage and Per Diem rate for the Host Country where you will be working.......the contractor also marks up these two item with an appropriate percentage for Overhead and Profit. When it comes time to pay the troops, the Per Diem is not auditable by the Govt. only the Wages have to be reported. So now the contractor is free to "negotiate" the amount of Per Diem they are willing to pay......The Per Diem Rates can be found at www.state.gov/m/a/als/prdm/ and you should check them before signing any contract for Services with the Contractor. If enough Employess refuse to accept what the contractor says he is willing to pay and quote the rates as established by the Govt. for Overseas work maybe then can you get what is coming to you.......remember Per Diem is Tax Free money so the more you can get over and above your wages can mean quite a a sizeable amount in your pocket and not the Contractors. The Contractors loose sight of the fact that if they can't find workers willing to work for fair wages and Per Diem how the hell are they going to fulfill their Contractural Requirements and complete the project........The guy I worked for thought that if he paid you a little something above your wages and furnished your housing than you should be happy to have a job and be thankfull to work for for him. Of course he was jealous because the troops got tax free money and he had to declare all of his income.....I think it all boils down to greed.........they don't want ot pay any more than they have to in order to make their bottom line bigger and we want to make more money to make our bank accounts bigger.......simple economics.

HeadRat

09-28-05, 04:14 AM

Disturbing

mexfishguide

10-23-05, 11:50 AM

What about projects such as the big one in China?

They pay no per deim,,,, but furnish a room with bath and 3 meals a day????

How much do they write off per person per day???? You can bring your wife over but she can not stay in the room with you, only employees can stay with you, my question to them was, in other words if I shack with a female employee in my room, that is ok, but do not share the room with my wife.
:wtf

You can have an RR in 6 months but we prefer you do not return stateside
for the RR???? :321

I am an onery ol fart, but try not to be taken advantage of.

Mexfishguide. :cheers

mexfishguide

03-23-06, 04:19 AM

To (individual I was sending to at the time)

United States Secretary of State, OBO, appointed officials, elected officials, other contractors, and our voting public.

This is not meant to be derogatory to any of our fine contractor’s. I think they have been dumped on as well as the workers. When you bid a project, you have to make money or you go out of business.

As a born in the US, raised in the US, US citizen, and cleared American worker for us embassy construction overseas. I and several of my fellow overseas workers are very concerned with what we see happening on our overseas embassy construction projects.
Our US Embassy’s overseas are for the good of the American tax payer, and are paid for by the American tax payer, but we the tax payers, are getting fewer of the construction worker jobs. Being replaced by untrained, non secure, unreliable, and unqualified, non American workers, at wages below the poverty level. A couple things I have seen lately, non Americans being paid $8 a 10 hr day where it was costing them $6 a day for transportation to work and back. Another job, workers pay was not enough in a 10hr day, to feed them. One project the first crew of electricians I received only one (1) could bend conduit, he only as a beginner, none of the crew could cut and thread conduit. This is the norm and not the isolated incident.
It is my understanding the (us$560,000,000.00) NEC, Bagdad, Iraq is being constructed by a non American Contractor, this is to be the biggest most protected US or other Embassy in the world. It is a disgrace to kick our American workers & contractors, in the face with this contract, it’s outrageous. Why in the world do you our elected protectors allow this? When you go to the DOS / OBO web site, that information is not readily available to the public, why? Are you ashamed of what you are doing to your own people?
When American contractors say they can not man the work, do not believe that for a minute. What they mean is they can not man the work at minimum wage. Wages on overseas embassy project should be based on prevailing wages in the central USA – St. Louis, Mo., According to each trade. Plus a benefit package should be available, we do not advocate a union of overseas workers, and understand 1&1/2 and 2 times wages are not paid. Per Diem, should be paid at DOS rates, if the contractors has a good lodging place for the workers and they agree, then the remainder of the rate should be paid as per diem, M&E fair enough.
For the good of our country, and to save tax money. On projects where non American construction workers are to be hired, a ratio of 4 non Americans to 1 American, when 8 locals and 2 American lead men are on site the next man is a foreman. We the American construction workers know what to do, and how to do it right.
Quantity of workers will not replace Quality of workers.
We are all the same from the president on down, just human beings trying to improve the lifestyle for our family.

my name
my address
my email.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

Pops

03-23-06, 05:15 AM

Bottom line is the contractors are only going to pay wages and benefits/per diem up to the point where they can get enough people who accept it. If they could get enough people who would do it for $10 an hour and no benefits, $10 per diem, that is what they would do. It is ALL about the profit and they (the contractors) don't care if we are happy or not as long as they can get the job done.

TheJester

03-23-06, 05:38 AM

No, the bottom line is for people like us, the workers, to ban together to make sure we are not saying YES to just anything. That is why I worked my butt off to make sure I got the links back up on the site. It wasn't for the Dredge Report or FoxNews, but to make sure we all had easy access to the Per Diem Page.

Pops

03-23-06, 08:04 AM

Correct, Jester. I did not mean we did not have any choices. "Together we stand". I am all for it. To get better money we ALL need to stick together. I know it is hard for a lots of guys and girls, who are desperate for any job, to hold out for better than $30 hr and minimal per diem. There are people in situations where they can't say no. Most of us can, I think. If enough of us say no, then the whole Ratpack will win. I don't think we are out to screw the contractors, just get what is FAIR!

p.s. A lot of good info on this thread!

mexfishguide

03-23-06, 11:53 AM

In all my years as an Engineering & Constuction contractor including overseas work.

Never! did I plan too, or try too, are even think about trying to pull a project out, by screwing my hands never!!!! Several times I have went to the site, and got in the trenchs with my men to help, and I mean help, dig, pull, push, cover, go for beer, furnish meals, anything I could to help.

I have missed many a paycheck, but my help all ways / all ways got paid, top wages as we agreed. I never one time cut wages or per deim.Never. I have paid full per deim that I agreed to, and then furnished a place to stay, but no I did not ask for the per deim back. Proud dam right I am.:rockwoot:

If I screwed up, are one of my top people got a project but by screwing the bid up, it was my fault not my working hands. We have to many people in the construction business that blame every one except the guilty them selves!!!

What a bunch of ass holes, we live with.:blahslap

I know , I know, my soap box again sorry, no I am not!!! Stand up to these people that believe we are to be sub servant to them.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

Hardline Rob

05-28-06, 01:24 AM

Guys,

Being on the other side of the fence on the per diem issues, having to bid jobs etc... I would like to put my:2cents in on this subject.... First I will plug our policy, we do not double up people normally, and Iraq is an exception because it is out of my control. You will receive full MI&E on other jobs; hardline does not ever touch that. We however pick the housing and you do not get that money. The team leader on the ground makes the choices and stays wherever the workers do, no special privileges. The question why? Simply put budget and competition. Lowest bidder gets the job. There is no separation for different categories. All of it comes from one pot of money. Just like I said in the Iraq string, ultimately you the workers pay for it all. I could offer you say 50 an hour.... you stay in a rat hole doubled up, at 30 an hour, single rooms, every man to himself, business class flights, 24 an hour, good benefits 18 an hour, Slow workers in the past and not making timelines 8.00. Excessive expense report items, phone calls, 2.00 an hour, padding the hours -5.00 an hour. You can quickly see how everything affects the hourly rate.

We experimented with the full per diem deal. Here’s what happens, Guys getting 200 dollars a day would double up and stay in the most dangerous rat hole for $40 in the worst part of town to save a buck. Guys got the cheapest accommodations they could which was 40 miles from the jobsite then expected to expense out the taxi rides and could not get to work on time or started the clock when they left the house etc etc. You get run off the job site for some numb nuts late night activities because you are so far removed from your teams that you do not know who your liabilities are... and are not afforded the opportunity to nip it in the bud before you get bit. SO, more money in the workers pocket equals padded hours, less time on the job, excess transportation cost.... Face it an ugly few have ruined it for all.

If the job runs over the anticipated timelines due to slow workers or underbid, there is no cushion or way to make up this money. If we hold some it, it funds the days over the job or the overage of hours. Jobs are bid based on a certain number of hours then calculated for that number of days. We bid our work for 60 hours a week and then 7 days per diem.... Where does the money come from for the 80 hour week if you don't finish 3 days earlier?

Airfare same thing, we may bid business class... if we use all the money to get the team there, who pays for the I got more money elsewhere and I am leaving you guy's replacement? The, I lied and really don't know what the fuck I am doing guys replacement? The, I've got a wedding to go to, sudden medical emergency guy’s replacement? And of course the favorite, you need to replace the team leader before we kill him replacement.... or the unexpected overweight baggage (Team tools) VCR, Computer, movie camera, boom box, porno tapes, screwdriver.

If we pay the best wages, fly business class, give the best benefits, give 100% per diem, we would have to finish all jobs in 1/3 less time than any of our competitors and be dead nut on the bid to win a bid.... Otherwise we won't WIN any bids and all are unemployed. How much are you willing to give up ensuring you stay employed and have constant jobs?

It comes down to hourly wage, for each of these noted items a few dollars comes off the in your pocket numbers.... To stay competitive and give a decent wage in your pocket corners have to be cut somewhere. The day of time and material jobs are long dead.... All the jobs go to the lowest bidder regardless how they get there.-rob

Hardline pays 100% of the posted Mi&E,(except iraq if there is a posted rate?) we provide the lodging and keep that portion of per diem, In case that wasn't clear last post. It appears that some of strings are referring to not getting much of either.

[QUOTE=HeadRat]
My last point, I know for a fact there is a company that doesn't do a thing with the work itself. Here is what they do:

They have man power (Contractor A), they get in contact with contractors that need man power (Contractor B). Contract A says I'll give you 5 electricians at $980/day. Contractor B accepts. Contract A goes to his people and says "would you like to go to Eutopia for $30/hr and $200/day?" The workers say yes, sign contracts, and go through the process. That is 980/day/person coming in, then $500/day/person at cost, leaving a profit of $480/day/person that the worker is there.

How does this relate? Well, if Contractor B can spend $980/day/person from Contractor A, why can't that money just be sent down to the worker directly? How does that relate to which kind of contract a contractor has because I doubt they can change which kind it is midstream. I only know this because of talking to people that are dealing with a major NOB builder and their lack of telecommunication installers. Then talking with people that are working directly for the contractor NOT getting the full per diem or even MORE per diem.

QUOTE]

Hardline has done this a lot of times... We are sub contracted through another company, we do all of the work. We end up with about 1/10th of what the job was bid at by the other company even though we may have done the majority of all entailed. Why would we do this you may ask? If a company has an IDIQ contract they pretty much get the job without competition. If Hardline does not have access to that contract by way of an IDIQ vehicle, the only way to get any work is through the company that has the established contract. They get all the perks, we had to cut every corner to beat out the other competion. Sucks big time but it is the way it works. It is hard to compete against the bigger companies for the IDIQ contracts because you have to show the ability to staff them... SO how can you grow personnel wise without contracts, How do you prove you can staff a job without the people already on the pay role? This is what I was I was trying to overcome with the Iraq Recruiting. I hope future relationships with the Rat pack will help make us more competitive in the future for the gravy jobs and not just the leftovers.-rob

roadhard

05-28-06, 05:20 AM

I HAVE ALWAYS WORKED OVERSEAS WITH FUL PER DIEM, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY IT MAKES IT WORTH IT FOR ME TO BE OUT HERE, UNLESS WE ARE TALKING ONE HELL OF A NICE PAYCHECK, I WILL NOT CONTINUE TO WORK OVERSEAS PERIOD!

Hardline Rob

05-28-06, 06:20 PM

You always get full MI&E and 100% Lodging rates? Per Diem is made up of these two parts. Do you find and pay for your own room? Hardline gives 100% of the MI&E amounts. We pay for the lodging and transportation to the jobsite. I am surprised that companies are giving up both parts of per diem Lodging and MI&E. Please clarify if this is the case. What is everyone elses experience as to what is the "norm". thanks-rob

tavarich

05-28-06, 08:24 PM

I find that lately it has been running about 50-50 getting the full boat. I will take a job that pays a little less if the full boat is in effect. You talk about the people that have ruined it staying in shitholes and doubleing up. The thing is that if you want to stay on the other side of town and end up comeing in late,then you are out of a job if I am running it. There is no excuse for not being on time and screwing up the whole gig for all concerned.
The RSO will most likely tell you if your staying in a dangerous area they have a stake in seeing to that the contractors are safe. As I see it the contractors keep the extra money that comes in with the lodging and m&ie, because they do not bid the job or manage the job so they expect us to give them a cushion. On a big job that money gets so large that they do not have to worry about the bid because they can pocket the money they don't give us, and still make a small profit. IMHO :cheers

Gabriele

05-29-06, 01:49 AM

The government also has a waste fraud and abuse plan, this seems to stop a lot of the BS in it's tracks. I questioned this same thing also, why does one company pay out full per diem and wages and then others don't. I know the companies I worked for either the military paid for the room and board, but you paid for your medical coverage, the other a contractor to the OBO/DOS paid our rooms, medical, etc, we were given $1500 per diem (the country rated $4800 a month), completion bonus, etc (local holidays). So I guess if they give you the full per diem, you would be on your own for all expenses.
Being as the Roommate issue was so heavily discussed and members are banning together to say NO to it. I have another question. WHY do we NOT get FULL PER DIEM or MI&E on these jobs that are bid for it?
Before agreeing to ANY overseas job, you should first go to the very bottom middle of the homepage and click on 2005 PER DIEM RATES. This button will let you click on ANYWHERE in the WORLD and find out what the government issue Per Diem and MI&E rates are.

I have been around this globe more than a hundred times and I always come back to the same question. A job is bid for time, materials, labor, transportation, expenses, etc. Two of them are also, AIR TRAVEL FOR WORKERS and FULL PER DIEM/MI&E.

Now, if the companies are CHARGING THE GOVERNMENT for Business Class tickets and FULL PER DIEM/MI&E yet only giving out a part of it, how is that even LEGAL? I know this is not a NEW trick, but just an old one that has been around forever. Does that make it RIGHT? Just because it has worked doesn't make it right. Isn't that MISSAPPROPRIATION OF FUNDS?

Here is what I propose, being as I have a lot of people that are friends way up, I DON'T have a lot of people that can dig around on this issue. HOWEVER, Bill O'Reilly, CNN, Rush Limbaugh, and others do. I propose we get to the bottom of this and start getting what is coming to us, instead of it going into the pockets of the companies that screw us. Get in contact with your congressmen/women of your state, get in touch with Bill O'Reilly, get in touch with ANY NEWS AGENCY YOU CAN. Let's get to the bottom of it, let's see what they come up with, let's all send out emails, letters, phone calls, anything to show that it is an issue that doesn't just affect some, it affects us all, LET'S GET WHAT IS OURS.

Hey Hardline, who needs the telecom installers, my one bitch has been I have been waltzed around by a few companies, because of this or that. I keep hearing about how bad they need good people, but I keep getting the same song and dance. As I once posted here, one of the main guys who oversees the installation of the telecom systems ASKED for my resume, as he liked the work I had done, even made a oint to show me a picture of the work one guy did in Kabul (sorry if he is a Rat Pack member), I turned the photo upside down and he said "no, you had it right it was cabled wrong". So he sends an email to a guy or two who give me all the reasons why they can't hire me. :banghead

Guys,

Being on the other side of the fence on the per diem issues, having to bid jobs etc... I would like to put my:2cents in on this subject.... First I will plug our policy, we do not double up people normally, and Iraq is an exception because it is out of my control. You will receive full MI&E on other jobs; hardline does not ever touch that. We however pick the housing and you do not get that money. The team leader on the ground makes the choices and stays wherever the workers do, no special privileges. The question why? Simply put budget and competition. Lowest bidder gets the job. There is no separation for different categories. All of it comes from one pot of money. Just like I said in the Iraq string, ultimately you the workers pay for it all. I could offer you say 50 an hour.... you stay in a rat hole doubled up, at 30 an hour, single rooms, every man to himself, business class flights, 24 an hour, good benefits 18 an hour, Slow workers in the past and not making timelines 8.00. Excessive expense report items, phone calls, 2.00 an hour, padding the hours -5.00 an hour. You can quickly see how everything affects the hourly rate.

We experimented with the full per diem deal. Here’s what happens, Guys getting 200 dollars a day would double up and stay in the most dangerous rat hole for $40 in the worst part of town to save a buck. Guys got the cheapest accommodations they could which was 40 miles from the jobsite then expected to expense out the taxi rides and could not get to work on time or started the clock when they left the house etc etc. You get run off the job site for some numb nuts late night activities because you are so far removed from your teams that you do not know who your liabilities are... and are not afforded the opportunity to nip it in the bud before you get bit. SO, more money in the workers pocket equals padded hours, less time on the job, excess transportation cost.... Face it an ugly few have ruined it for all.

If the job runs over the anticipated timelines due to slow workers or underbid, there is no cushion or way to make up this money. If we hold some it, it funds the days over the job or the overage of hours. Jobs are bid based on a certain number of hours then calculated for that number of days. We bid our work for 60 hours a week and then 7 days per diem.... Where does the money come from for the 80 hour week if you don't finish 3 days earlier?

Airfare same thing, we may bid business class... if we use all the money to get the team there, who pays for the I got more money elsewhere and I am leaving you guy's replacement? The, I lied and really don't know what the fuck I am doing guys replacement? The, I've got a wedding to go to, sudden medical emergency guy’s replacement? And of course the favorite, you need to replace the team leader before we kill him replacement.... or the unexpected overweight baggage (Team tools) VCR, Computer, movie camera, boom box, porno tapes, screwdriver.

If we pay the best wages, fly business class, give the best benefits, give 100% per diem, we would have to finish all jobs in 1/3 less time than any of our competitors and be dead nut on the bid to win a bid.... Otherwise we won't WIN any bids and all are unemployed. How much are you willing to give up ensuring you stay employed and have constant jobs?

It comes down to hourly wage, for each of these noted items a few dollars comes off the in your pocket numbers.... To stay competitive and give a decent wage in your pocket corners have to be cut somewhere. The day of time and material jobs are long dead.... All the jobs go to the lowest bidder regardless how they get there.-rob

Hardline pays 100% of the posted Mi&E,(except iraq if there is a posted rate?) we provide the lodging and keep that portion of per diem, In case that wasn't clear last post. It appears that some of strings are referring to not getting much of either.

[QUOTE=HeadRat]
My last point, I know for a fact there is a company that doesn't do a thing with the work itself. Here is what they do:

They have man power (Contractor A), they get in contact with contractors that need man power (Contractor B). Contract A says I'll give you 5 electricians at $980/day. Contractor B accepts. Contract A goes to his people and says "would you like to go to Eutopia for $30/hr and $200/day?" The workers say yes, sign contracts, and go through the process. That is 980/day/person coming in, then $500/day/person at cost, leaving a profit of $480/day/person that the worker is there.

How does this relate? Well, if Contractor B can spend $980/day/person from Contractor A, why can't that money just be sent down to the worker directly? How does that relate to which kind of contract a contractor has because I doubt they can change which kind it is midstream. I only know this because of talking to people that are dealing with a major NOB builder and their lack of telecommunication installers. Then talking with people that are working directly for the contractor NOT getting the full per diem or even MORE per diem.

QUOTE]

Hardline has done this a lot of times... We are sub contracted through another company, we do all of the work. We end up with about 1/10th of what the job was bid at by the other company even though we may have done the majority of all entailed. Why would we do this you may ask? If a company has an IDIQ contract they pretty much get the job without competition. If Hardline does not have access to that contract by way of an IDIQ vehicle, the only way to get any work is through the company that has the established contract. They get all the perks, we had to cut every corner to beat out the other competion. Sucks big time but it is the way it works. It is hard to compete against the bigger companies for the IDIQ contracts because you have to show the ability to staff them... SO how can you grow personnel wise without contracts, How do you prove you can staff a job without the people already on the pay role? This is what I was I was trying to overcome with the Iraq Recruiting. I hope future relationships with the Rat pack will help make us more competitive in the future for the gravy jobs and not just the leftovers.-rob

Sparky1

11-05-06, 02:51 AM

Hey Group,

Just thought I would enter in if that is alright.
You guys are reading my mind and I am sure everyone else would like answers as well on these topics.

I see this RatPack internet group as a real valuable tool for possibly obtainig workers rights or better conditions / benefits.

Let's pass the word on to everyone to contact thier congressman for input and answers on this subject.
We should inform congress that we feel we should recieve what is entitled to us on per diem rates and any other benefits as an international worker.
This should get them thinking and I can see positive results in the long run.

United we stand.
I want to encourage anyone who gets a response from his / her congress person to please share it with us.
I think we are going places ! Amen.
:cheers Sparky1

mexfishguide

11-05-06, 11:51 AM

First of all it will do none of us any good, to come on site and bitch, complain, & gripe,
About how bad the contractors treat you! They are not any different then you are, they want as much money as possible. It is a contest to see how cheep you are.

It is your fault, your, working for 22 and no per diem, do not sign the stupid contract. If everyone out there with a 22or23 dollar contract and no per diem or less then government suggested per diem give your 2 week notice to quit. And the rest of you refuse to replace them at the old rate, the us gov. would wake up. Maybe?

Let us say a project has a suggested per diem of 200 per day, 100 for lodging and 100 for MEI, you get a pm on site who decides he can rent you an apartment someplace for a 1000 per month, he right away says I will do that, be a good company hand and save us 2000 per man per month. He continues with his save the co. attitude and decides he can feed everybody for 15 a day so he does, and cuts out the MEI, now he has saved the co.
Another 2000 are so a month per man. So he is successful at these cuts, he then says I think I can hire all the men I need for 25 instead of 30 an hr. He cuts the pay for those all ready on site and by golly no one quits. If I am one of the men, I will not be there in the morning.

I have ask for 2 years, read your dam contract, if per diem is 250 a day. But the company is furnishing the lodging you and the company, decide, if the lodging is suitable and what the rent will be, let us say 1200 a month? Are about 31 a day, that is subtracted from the 250 a day you then have 219 MEI per day. The company’s will all say no dam way, that will break us Bull crap, How many of you believe a company will bid a project at less then US government suggested per diem?

Rob, is saying if he pays full per diem, the guys will share the cheapest lodging they can find, so what? The expense money comes off the bottom line! They pay their own way to work and back, now if they miss a day, cut their pay and per diem, if they are late cut their pay. Treat them like grown men, they come to work if they want to be paid if not:wtf
No pay.

I do not want anyone telling me where I can stay, where I can eat, and what I can eat. If, you are in Iraq? You still need some MEI to take care of incidental’s, you are not in the Army! :fauches:

A lot of this crap is started by some asshole PM, who believes no one, is worth more then 20 hr and 10 dollars a day. However he fly’s first class, drives new company vehicle, has his whole family with him and lives in a very nice home. Draws 100% of all his expense’s.

Please, guys wake up, you are headed for 18 – 20 an hour no expense, barracks type lodging and what ever they wish to feed you, look at the contractors getting the work now, if you think all those southern union breaking contractors give a shit about you, your wrong.

Take Care --- Mexfishguide:cheers

HeadRat

11-05-06, 09:44 PM

Amen

FATBOY

11-05-06, 11:50 PM

Hello I'm with Justus !! If you do not like it do not sign!!!
But all of you know we will never get all we deserve with out sicking together.. Bad thing is that if we all become hardheaded and a contractor can not man the job with Americans they will cry to the owner and plead to be alowed to use OTA,s OTHER THEN AMERICANs to perform the work. This is a bad thing but thats why they call a double edge sword good and dangerous.:AR15

Gabriele

11-06-06, 01:30 AM

I've stated the same thing also, when you sign the contract you know what the deal is. I ran into one guy who overseas the telco instalations, says he pays his guys full per-diem to compensate for their wages. So what are the wages, in Cambodia lodging & meals can be cheap, but what about other countries. If the company pays you full per-diem, then what about the medical coverage, lodging, meals , etc. I knew several hands who required medical evacuation, if they did not have the coverage, what would that cost. :fauches:

frubie3

03-13-07, 08:27 PM

Before I came over here to Iraq i was a law student and worked for roughly 3 years at a contractual law firm as a paralegal. I drew up a lot of contracts, interpreted them into "lawerspeak" and looked for loopholes and sighted justification clauses.
I found it interesting, in my time there, while reviewing clients claims that there are a few things which are universal "knowns."
Rule#1: Companies do not care about their employees' best interests.
When it comes to compliance, companies will only follow regulations (state and federal) OSHA, EPA et al. when they absolutely must. Instituting compliance costs money, requires supervision and cuts down on profits.
Rule#2: It is more profitable to steal than to conduct good business.
It is a sad truth but companies, honestly, consider screwing employees over in their profit margins every fiscal quarter. I have sat in so many draft meetings where this very subject is brought up and discussed at length that it turned my stomach. The truth is if a companies can "skim" off their workers, suppliers, retailers and the government they will do it. Averaging "x" into the equation times the number of years + componded interest is a rather staggering number. Besides, if a lawsuit or an inquiry or subcommitee is brought against them then they will use lawyers fees (a write off) to keep off the wolves long enough to stave off an Injunction to cease and desist. If found guilty in civil /criminal court is a slap on the wrist and hardly worth caring about. I dealt with a company which curbed money off a gov't institution. They got found guilty and paid a fine of $14.2 million; I'd hate to tell you how much the gov't proved they actually took. Sad but all to common.
There are many other rules but you get the idea. Contracting is a lawyers' dream on true actually. That why I quit.

Taz

03-14-07, 12:22 AM

A bid is based on several factors. All the companies are trying to cut costs where they can to compete in the market. Some companies choose to cut this per diem rate down in the bid process to try and win the job. The companies take the risk of not getting "good" folks to come to a job. We all negotiate our contracts. We need to be satisfied prior to signing the dotted line. I am not one that looks at per diem as the deciding factor...it is a factor, but it plays in with other issues such as location, R&R, plane tickets..etc. If there is a real gripe then don't look for hard dollar jobs to go on. Most of these jobs will not pay full per diem unless they are taking it from some other benifit that we may or may not be aware of.

Bottom line is that FFP (Firm Fixed Priced) jobs are just that, the company is not getting full per diem They are getting a bag of money to spend on everything to get a job build per the specifcations.

worker

03-14-07, 03:40 AM

iceguy

03-14-07, 03:44 AM

I have friends working on a project who tell me their per diem is less than one tenth that of the subs on the job. They are getting their hotel paid for. I would think that would create some major questions amongst the employees of that company, which will remain unnamed here. Do they have any recourse. I'm not sure what type of contract the job is bid under.

Gabriele

03-14-07, 03:47 AM

90 % of the overseas workers need to grow some nades and just not accept the reduced per-diem and pay. This is a good market, if everyone keeps backing down we will be working for nothing. The contractor and the employee are in this together but if you as a whole don't start to stand up they will put the money in their pocket. Only my opinion from someone who has been on both sides Contractor and employee.

Here's how I see it, there is only so much money in the pot, you can get your moneyy in whatever pots yyou want, but you are only going to get a certain amount. I work with guys today, some get per diem, some don't but their pay isn't any more then any other in the pay grade they are in. I don't get per diem, but I can write off my expenses, those who draw per diem can't or at least not as much. Their advantage is they don't pay taxes on their per diem. Now if the company provides me a good apartment/hotel room overseas, pays me a decent amount for MI&E and a resonable wage for my work and honors the contract they signed with me, then I have no issues. The bottom line is thatyou do not have to sign the contract. By the way, I still have my nads. :2cents :2cents :cheers

mexfishguide

03-14-07, 05:48 AM

One more quick comment.

Any person can post anything they wish within lemits, but it is what you do
at contract time that counts.

I maintain that 23 per hr in the states 1&1/2 over 40 hr a week and 70 a day
per deim, working 60 to 70 hrs a week, is better then 23 overseas with no 1&1/2, room and meals furnished. Plus just outside the job gate or 2 regular ol beer joints the people speak english and have budweiser beer, yes it is cold better be in this dessert heat.:wtf

This morning we had a safety meeting at 6:30am, everone was on the clock,
and breakfast was furnished. When you have 7 or 800 men on the job, I think it shows the company cares.

Please try your best to keep the international pay up above 30 per hr, & full per deim. You have the right to try and negoate wages and per deim! Your
reputation if ? good enough will get you more work and higher pay.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

Pops

03-14-07, 05:57 AM

mmmmm Frubie, hope you did better at the law firm than this post, look up the difference in "sighted" and "cited". Now I know we are not supposed to pick on people's ability to type or spell...it is just you were coming off so "legal".

Meanwhile, have another beer.:cheers

Halliburton does not have the taxpayer's or our best interests in mind. Who is surprised at that? Hooray for Hillary!:cheers

Personally I think that our government should use our citizens and our companies to build, maintain, and improve upon any U.S. property, both here and abroad. And Frubie, you are exactly right in your points, employees are just another set of tools...and if they can get more "mileage" with a different vehicle that will still perform the work, they will.

Now that is all I can say without getting political or religious!

HeadRat

03-14-07, 11:34 PM

Their advantage is they don't pay taxes on their per diem. You may want to check the new laws on this, as it has changed.
I have friends working on a project who tell me their per diem is less than one tenth that of the subs on the job. They are getting their hotel paid for. I would think that would create some major questions amongst the employees of that company, which will remain unnamed here. Do they have any recourse. I'm not sure what type of contract the job is bid under.If they do not all stand up against it together, NO, there is no recourse. They are laying down and letting themselves be walked over.
This morning we had a safety meeting at 6:30am, everone was on the clock,
and breakfast was furnished. When you have 7 or 800 men on the job, I think it shows the company cares.Yes, I would agree. Some of the new comers to the Overseas world, may think this is nothing, but it is, it is just one of many LITTLE things that count out there.

Gabriele

03-15-07, 01:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriele
Their advantage is they don't pay taxes on their per diem.

HR:

You may want to check the new laws on this, as it has changed.

Is the per diem taxable or is it taxed by medicare, which I know they do, but not by the IRS. Or is it counted toward the whole package as to what is excludable?

dan4th

03-17-07, 03:48 PM

Why don't you ask our resident tax guy I'm sure he can tell you what you want to know about any new laws concerning taxes.:wtf

Gabriele

03-17-07, 10:04 PM

Why don't you ask our resident tax guy I'm sure he can tell you what you want to know about any new laws concerning taxes.:wtf

well gee Dan, I was hoping you could answer that one. what I do know is that up until last year, when I last drew per diem, I never paid tax on it except for medicare & SS so when did it become taxable, :wtf

dan4th

03-20-07, 05:31 PM

Well James, it becomes taxable after one year on a project. :moon

Gabriele

03-21-07, 12:20 AM

Actually, after one year it is no longer per diem, it is rolled into your hourly rate, at least that is what happens when I am on contract

Let me clarify it a bit more, per diem has usually been paid out on a job that lasts no more then one year at one location, then the per diem usually is rolled into your hourly rate which then makes it taxable. However, I have had per diem and even excludable income taxed for medicare ans social security from day one. :cheers

The Wild Rover

03-21-07, 01:55 AM

Let me play devils advocate here. I have never paid taxes on per diem, any for that matter, while working OVERSEAS for the past 15 years. Nor have I ever had to pay medicare, or social security on earned per diem while working OVERSEAS for the past 15 years. That money is for your living expense while working in that country. A few years ago, Perini tried to tax it on a few guys I know, and roll it into the paycheck as earned income, but a quick call to some tax lawyers straightned them out. His quote was..."I'm a Notre Dame graduate in accounting, I think I know what I'm doing"...that type of mentality makes me laugh...some tax guy from Akron Ohio got the jump on you dumbass...Anyhow, I believe that if you are working overseas, and claiming "residence" you have to pay taxes on per diem earned on that project after one year, not, however, if you are claiming "physical presence". For work while in the US, however, this situation may be different... I think the Tax man on site would be able to answer this better, because we will wind up with 30 different opinions, and there are new laws even for the overseas worker.

Gabriele

03-21-07, 02:46 AM

Good points WR, when on Kwaj I never recieved any per diem, yet stateside I've gotten it many times and of course the amount is dependant on which state you work in. :cheers

Low Range

03-21-07, 09:33 PM

Why would anyone work for no per diem ?? Whatta thinkin ? from what i have read on this thread that is part of the bid, part of the package, part of the ff ing deal to be considered when you bid the job you hope to land so you can hire the workers to do the job and everyone makes their piece of the pie and on to the next one. :wtf
Seems to me that a guy could be insured of some work if the contractors knew of the ones that will work for should we say "far less" than what they are actually entitled to.
If you read this thread from the start, its about why no full per diem , not about defending why no full per diem. Read it from a contractors point of view and i think it says, hay ,these guys arent really so stuck on the full per diem rate , looks to me we can low ball them easily.
On second thought , maybe i should reconsider, i just paid my bills , they all went way down again , dont really give a shit about my home life ,family ,friends, good food,people i can have a conversation with on the street and be understood, not wondering if i am a target when i go out and about, you get the idea.
I for one am not about to whore myself out for the same money i can make at home. whatta thinkin ?? :banghead

Gabriele

03-22-07, 12:21 AM

I think many of you get stuck on the "full per diem", When at Kwaj, all my meals were provided, my room, etc. Isn't this what per diem is for, to pay for my meals, lodging, etc. If these are covered then why should I expect "full per diem". Here in the states I have had jobs on contract or even as temporary in which I didn't get per diem, however I am allowed to deduct my costs to work on those projects which allow me to get some money back. If I demanded the per diem, I would get less on the hour and would not earn any more then the total of hourly and per diem together. When I am overseas I look at the total package, if my hourly rate is acceptable, my acceptable housing is covered and I am given a decent amount to cover my meals, etc then I don't have a problem.

Pops

03-22-07, 03:52 AM

Per Diem, as I understand it, is figured on what it would cost in a location to live like you live at home. So if at home you eat at McDonalds and save a buck or eat at Outback is your choice. What is provided usually by the companies, a bed, a shower, a shitter, etc...just to get by. To live like that should be your choice, not theirs. Just because they provide the absolute necessities does not cut it. Youl should not be FORCED to live in those conditions, it should be YOUR CHOICE. So if you CHOOSE to live in company provided digs and take M and IE, or some other combination, that is your choice. Full Per Diem and you handle your own accomodations should also be YOUR CHOICE.

But again, that is just my :2cents , meanwhile, have another beer!

Low Range

03-22-07, 09:46 PM

Uh ,not to sound to greedy or nuthin but i will take my chances on my own, i was kinda thinkin maybe i can get ahead a little since i am --OVERSEAS--
In other words, pay me at least 30 bucks, pay me the going rate on the per diem, and i will be at work when i am supposed to be ,do what i am paid to do and go home and be there again in the morning,or whatever the case may be.
I cant believe this issue is turning out to be a downward spiral or that it seems to be a bad thing to get what you deserve. its almost like asking for a raise after you just passed on the wage you already had by saying, oh no thanks,thats too much ,lets start over from the bottom, i know i am supposed to get more but we just wont mention it
I dont even know what i just said other than i see it being debated in the wrong direction. Downhill :banghead

Gabriele

03-23-07, 12:32 AM

I don't anyone is disagreeing with you on this, but it is more of what is happening in real life. If you can earn what you want in the states, when companies are cutting back on the pay overseas then why go overseas. I'm just suggesting that when the company pays for the lodging, etc how can you expect full per diem. I'd love to make what I am making here per hour overseas and full per diem, but it isn't going to happen.

roadhard

03-23-07, 01:09 AM

Gabriele

03-23-07, 01:44 AM

So let me get this right, If the co. puts you up and feeds you, Then why the hell should you complain and ask for more? :wtf Must be a true and blue Zachry hand :lol: :lol: :lol:

The only reason I have been working overseas for the last 8 years, Is for the per diem, If i am going to miss out on a normal life with my family and friends busting ass on some of these messed up projects, It has to be profitable...Just my :2cents

Let's see, if the full per diem for a country is $4000 per month and then you must provide for everything, such as your own lodging, food, insurance, etc and then you want $30 an hour. You may get one or the other, but I doubt both. Now let's say you're in some third world country you may do ok, but how about some other world class city, then what. It's not some Zachry hand, feel a need to slam someone go ahead. I know one company that pays his employees full per diem, but they aren't getting $30 an hour and they're not working overseas 330 days a year. I don't get per diem on this job, I make close to $40 an hour and I get one hell of a write off come tax time for my costs,

HeadRat

03-23-07, 01:54 AM

Time Out! Fighting among yourselves accomplishes nothing.

Gabriele

03-23-07, 03:03 AM

Time Out! Fighting among yourselves accomplishes nothing.

You are correct HR, one thing that sticks in y mind as one old hand once told me "it's what how much you make, it's how much you keep".

roadhard

03-23-07, 03:56 AM

Sorry about the Zachry blow, No pun intended man, This is not meant to be a fight but a discussion...
But seriously man give me a break, Cant beilive someone would come on here saying that they are pleased with the way some of these co's operate by screwing the working man and line their pocket books with per diem that is not rightfully theirs :wtf
Truth is, Is that there are quite a few good companies out there who do pay top wages and yes "Full Per diem" I happen to work for one of them and i am about 5 weeks from 330, Not that I even wanted to be out this long but...

HeadRat

03-23-07, 01:14 PM

With the recent tax laws changing, I think we would focus more on getting as much money per hour as possible. Sure, you're still not getting taxed up to 12,000 in per diem, but then again, I'm not completely sure as to how the law works.

Low Range

03-23-07, 07:28 PM

Hay boss,come take a look at this ! I told you if we planted some guys on this site to take the temperature of what they think on the per diem issue they would fold like a deck of cards, looks like there maybe stuck on the minimum wage thing though.
Oh well, we got it down as to how we can hide the per diem ,all we need are a few more of the workers to go along with it and we can throw a crew together,screw them other guys. In a few more years this will be the norm and we can cut it some more, there will be no turning back for them and we can continue to get the full rate.
Man o man, this overseas work is somethin, they must never find out about this you know ,looks like that vacation house you been wanting is in the works,just be patient its starting to happen.

Just a thought :doh

Gabriele

03-24-07, 01:41 AM

yeah, you must be right about this, that's why the companies have been cutting back since the early 90's, when did this site start up?

Pops

03-24-07, 05:44 AM

I still maintain it should be our choice, company housing ,etc, or full per diem. Company housing isn't always fit for dogs, but I guess it may be better or as good as you are used to and you accept it ok. Well I grew up poor in Oklahoma and I remember dirt floors, no electricity, an outhouse, and no hot water, man, and I DON"T have to put up with it any more. I clawed my way up here and I ain't going back if I can help it. Now Motel 6 is okay with me, but not a man camp with bunk buddies and one toilet down the hall for 20 guys. Where YOU draw the line is up to you, and that is what I am saying, it should be up to US not THEM. If they provide lodging, transportation, meals, communications, etc, then okay, it is suitable. But WE should judge whether it suits us, not them.

Now whose turn was it to buy the next round?:cheers

mexfishguide

03-24-07, 07:42 AM

I will buy the next round bro.

I too went through those times and dam sure do no want to go back. After clawing my way out, do not offer me that kind of a shit deal in some ratty country, are in the us, I will not take it.

A house with 1 light bulb in each room, no inside plumbing, walk 100 yards to the toilet, walk a 1/4 mile draw water and carry it back to the house. In the
morning get up break water in the water bucket for a drink and to make coffee.:AR15

Try to get a fire started so my wife could get up and cook. No locks on any of the doors. Hell no pops. I got up here and I intend to stay.:wtf :wtf

Any one that never lived that far down, has no idea what it is like. Do not sign those dam stupid contracts. These people all of them are not going to tell me when and what I ete.frigem.

Folks you have to stand up for yourself, not be an asshole but let them know how you live your life.

Take Care:cheers
Mexfishguide:rockwoot:

TheJester

03-24-07, 08:53 AM

yeah, you must be right about this, that's why the companies have been cutting back since the early 90's, when did this site start up? Early 90's, HA, it was cutting back well before that. Talk to some guys about the 60-70-or-80's and the perks they had.

According to the RPI banner, it was started in 04

Low Range

03-24-07, 08:15 PM

And by the way Thank You for not deleting my last comment , my faith in the Rat pack has been restored , well some anyway?

As stated in this very thread by a well known company rep.

5-27-06 post#25 hardline rob

" If the job runs over the anticipated timelines due to "slow workers" or "under bid" there is no CUSHION or way to make up this money.

and also goes on to say " if we "hold" some of it, it funds the days over the job or the overage of hours.

I guess until now i didnt realize i was being used as well as being thought of as being a slacker without even starting on the job,kinda a built in safety net at the workers expense, the ---WORKERS--per diem expense,so yes guys,there is a pool of money out there that is bid in the cost of doing buisiness for a company to get the job. The --Same-- pool the other contractors bid with.

My question ?? Who gives the contractor the right to use " MY " per diem as part of there bid? to "hold "it as it says? Times are tough they say,i agree somewhat, how come times are tougher for the owners is what i want to know. And if it does come in under hours,they gonna give the HOLD money back to me ?? Ya sure! What a load of sad story crap!
This mentality as it is does not look good,we have not a single person to blame but our selves. Protect youre future guys,and gals,the other side is.

Gabriele

03-24-07, 09:42 PM

Early 90's, HA, it was cutting back well before that. Talk to some guys about the 60-70-or-80's and the perks they had.

According to the RPI banner, it was started in 04

very true, but I am referring to when I started in the contracting business, however I saw it too with Ma Bell and the CWA. I started in 1969 with Ma after I got out of the active duty years of the navy, I saw some good things up until mid 80"s when we started losing many perks, etc.

mexfishguide

03-25-07, 03:44 AM

My comments here on this thread, are not meant to be detrimental to anyone. But are rather from my observations.

Conditions will continue to go down hill, until our upcoming generation of tradesmen & women, realize it takes a lot of people working together in order to stop the downhill slide and get us as a group, started back to where we have respect as american working men & women. With that respect comes better wages & perks.

We on this site are responsible for the pay, perks, & conditions, that will go on for our children that come after us in this business.?!

Again let me say this, if lodging is not up to standards ask to be moved, if you have a superintendent that will not stand up for his hands, he needs his ass whipped. Once some people are moved up to super. they seem to forget what its like to be in the trenchs.

We on this site have for awhile now, begged & pleaded with everyone to please not sign a contract under us$30.00 per hour.

In the states each craft has their own wage scale, it seems as tho overseas it has come down to everyone draws the same pay.:wtf

Per diem is going to be up to each one of us, myself I have been in this game so long if someone starts on me with lodging and 50 a day, I run backwards.
I still go with this idea, if govern per diem is 300 per day, and the company furnishs me acceptable lodging and we agree on it costing 100 a day
then I ask for the remaining 200 be paid me as MEI.

To rant, rage, & cuss about it will do no good, just ask before you sign.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

Low Range

03-25-07, 05:54 PM

Thank you for youre --UPBEAT-- comment about this very serious discussion,one of the very few i have noticed on this thread.
I cannot say how this just blows me away that there are not more members having a say in this.
I see it as this, if we do not stand up for the -FAIR- per diem issue it will infact vanish, tell you what for you non believers,lets move this to whatever part of the Rat Pack site that has the contractors on it, betcha dont got the balls!!
If you "dont know who" dont actually think that this is not a problem,and i mean i major problem,a major,major,problem and think that this is something to gloss over and not pay attention to then lets go for it,tell em we feel there pain,we hold the companys in the highest regard,and we feel that a reduced per diem rate is a-ok with us.

This is THE most assinine way to go about getting what is rightfully ours,it just screams,,cut my per diem ,you can have it i dont expect it or need it!
Its there,its in with the bid,how come you fight not to have it????????

Come on members, i realize its only 5 grand or so a month more money but if you dont want or need it maybe you just better stay home and work in the states, when i get requested to go to Seattle or Portland there has never ,ever been a discussion on my per diem,it is what it is,PERIOD.

How about it members ? What do you all think ? This thread has a lot of views on it ,how come no thoughts ? I could go on and on,just makes me furious though. :wtf

And Thank You , Roadhard

Low Range

04-08-07, 11:33 PM

How come this discussion seems to have went off the screen ?
As the saying goes on this site " Post up ,like you have a pair"

:wtf

Biggus Jimmus

04-09-07, 03:12 AM

Below you will find the response to why the Per Diem is only $30/ Day in Panama. Quoted from Caddell's HR Person to me in an e-mail, many of you know who he is but I am not mentioning any names.

"The wages and per diem are established based on the location. The more inconvenient and unattractive the location and the less there is to do in a location, the more we offer the craftsmen to work there."
"Panama, on the other hand, is a choice area with all the conveniences
of a U.S. assignment. American fast food is abundant and cheap. There are
many things to do there. Many Americans choose Panama City, Panama as a
vacation spot. Culture shock is not a problem there." :wtf

These companies continue to man these projects but hey I am seeing others going to Iraq for much less. :banghead So the Green Zone must be indeed a vacation spot.

I've been working with a clearance for over 15 years and most of that time in the Embassy Circuit and before that for others in the states. I think Rat Pack is a good site for the old hands that have been around in this circus and know the ropes.

What happens to the guys that have stood there ground to get the wages up and per diem more than what they have been paying? They are all sitting on their ass and not taking the jobs while all the others that will work for a dime keep signing contracts for lower wages and little to if any per diem.

Rat Pack has paved the path with all the information for these guys to get their foot in the door. They spend some money, get all the contacts, send out their resumes and if the Caddells, Harbert, Zacharies and Jones' sees that they do not have a clearance, the first thing they think is "Virgin, we can get him on with only an interim clearance because it's an NEC and he will love our low dollar contract". All these guys that have never worked overseas in there life seem to all have the same attitude, "it is more than what I was making in the states".

Now that the flood gates of information has been unleashed, how do you keep the FNGs from taking the low paying, low per diem jobs before the benefits get better? Rat Pack has made it much easier for these companies to man the projects with the means of a larger data base of workers to choose from which results in low wages and low per diem. Simple "Supply and Demand".:nono:

Man I wish it was this easy to find the companies when I was starting out doing this shit many years ago but if that was the case then the wages and per diem would probably be much lower than it is now. I hope Rat Pack has not introduced too much information too fast into a society that can not handle it i.e. the desperate state side construction worker and cheating construction companies. I've seen more roll over and take by the man then stick up for their fare share. :2cents

Hope I did not piss anyone off too bad with this but I had to get it off my chest. Some of you know who I am and know where I am coming from with this.

Expat

04-10-07, 01:33 AM

Now that the flood gates of information has been unleashed, how do you keep the FNGs from taking the low paying, low per diem jobs before the benefits get better? Rat Pack has made it much easier for these companies to man the projects with the means of a larger data base of workers to choose from which results in low wages and low per diem. Simple "Supply and Demand"

I'm with you Biggus Jimmus. We have been down this road before, way too much information has been made too easy to obtain. Over a thousand members and still only a hand full of people participating. A while back Head Rat asked for suggestions how to get more people involved and cut down on the lurkers. Suggestions were made but met with great resistance and the reason I felt was that it would cut down on membership or the bottom line. That being said the Rat pack has done a lot of good by giving us a forum. I’ve been at this for 14 years so I have a little bit of experience to draw from, if you were to ask me if Rat Pack has helped or hindered wage scale for cleared work, I would have to go with hindered. As long as someone from a low wage state for the small price of a subscription can get all the information they need to get a job and undercut the rest of us that is what will happen. The idea is to form solidarity via this site but I’m afraid that’s never going to happen just to lack of participation is proof of that. Now I’m sure I’ll piss some people off with this.:2cents

mexfishguide

04-10-07, 03:46 AM

Guys, if you post whats on your mind, the way you feel, and the way you do.

So what if it pisses some one off, this the good ol USA, freedom of speech, is our right. But I would be very careful of calling names and degrading stand up
rats.

My post on the subject of wages, per deim, and condition's.

Simple and short--:wtf

minimum us$30.00 an hour.
per deim us gov. reccomended, part can be for an agreed on lodging.
bonus in writting on contract signed by both parties - condidtions spelled out.
insurance both employee & family
minimum work hours on contract.

You guys have to understand to come on board and work for less then the rest of us is plain on cut throat way of doing things.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

The Wild Rover

04-10-07, 06:49 AM

This is a response I got from one of the "Rats" I recently went 'round with about over the number of members, and only a few post up. It's a personal message to me below, in the quotation marks...
"Personal!!!
"WR,
i'm not gonna battle with you over this as i was trying to make a point and you turned this into a personal target at yourself!i myself have posted each time i have gotten any info since i have joined but i can tell you this much-i have never received a single job nor a lead through ratpack.but,at the end of the day,i am still a part of ratpack and still contribute what ever i can.you need to get over yourself buddy and as for myself,construction is my way of life and guys like you that bitch all the time and think it helps are a tarnish and should write to cosmo instead!im sorry that i have allowed this posting that began as a genuine question about a job ( rome project)turn into a personal conflit between 2 peoples point of view.i might not post very much but when i do it has reason for all of us here.
i'll tell you this much,your representation as a council member that is supposed to represent us makes me feel very sad that other council members get looked at as poorly as i look at you "....

And so my response..
"Well XXXXX, I am sorry you feel that way. Obviously I have let you down. I will try to work harder for the benifit of all. I am sorry that you look down on me as a council member, but that is something I have to deal with on a personal level, and I feel I am doing the best I can to get the membership involved in the site. Yes I bitch, but I bitch because there is no other way to get the message accross sometimes. What should I do, hold their hands? Construction is my way of life also. I have been in electrical construction since 1982, and overseas since 1990. That doesn't make me better than you, it just shows that I understand. And if you feel that people that complain tarnish, I say the ones that don't complain make it harder for everyone else by being quiet. How do you think guys should talk about group housing or low wages? I apoplogise for any hard feellings, but that is my opinion. Hopefully we can see each other's differences and see the way forward enough to shake hands, and respect each others opinion enough to work together, even if we dissagree."
__________________

So you see, I really felt I mis-treated a member, so I apologised for perhaps being too hard and maybe making this guy regret joining. Now that I think about it, I will say what I want, within the limits of the Posting Rules.:2up Hey guess what bro, I have been working at construction for a lot longer than some of the guys on the jobs, so I'd say that yeah, it's my way of life too, "bro", from my Grandfather and his brothers, My Father and his Brothers, to myself and my brothers, and someday, maybe my son's, so that's a long way of life, and a long tradition of speaking up for what you believe in...and as far as Cosmo...heck, I read it for the articles, not the pictures.:kib: Maybe we should all be like you, and when conditions get bad on the job, we can hide our heads in the sand...because you think the guys that bitch "Tarnish" the projects. Well, I got news for you guys that are always quiet, and just go along not making any waves...do you expect evryone to go and earn your pay raises, and benefits for you? This site is supposed to help each other speak out.
I agree 100% with lack of posting, too much info shared by too few... We have enabled a large minority of hack mechanics access to too much information, which in turn will bring the wages down because more people have access to where to get the work. I would hope that the more that people post, the more informed we as a group would be...causing the wage and cost of living to rise... One guy went to Iraq for less than $25/hour. I am not jealous of that guy for anything. I feel sorry he did not have the info to make a better wage. I would say he undercuts what we are working at...and we should not abandon this man, but educate him, for all of our benefit.
The purpose is to fight for what we feel is real, and all should have a voice. I dis-agree with the member, but I respect his opinion, and his right to voice it.

Pops

04-10-07, 08:16 AM

Amen and pass the biscuits!

TheJester

04-10-07, 10:41 AM

:lol:
I've been on MANY of a job, and this is what I hear all day:

"bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch..."

Then you go to a meeting or a "community meeting" of sorts, and what happens?

Company Rep: "are there any issues out there in the field?"

"..............................................(sil ence)................................."

Return to work and everyone is back to bitch, bitch, bitch, and "...someone SHOULD have said........"

I've even been fool enough to listen to everyone at work, then when asked about issues at the meeting stood up to state what everyone was bitching about out in the field:
"...isn't that right guys?"
only to have everyone of you piss ants give the silent, "what are you talking about, I love it here" look.

So AGAIN, I say, you think info is bad, and getting everyone on the same page? Ask the guys that worked in Astana and got their own apts because of RPI, or the guys that were getting stiffed money from companies that got it cause it was brought up here, or even the guys that are currently over in China that are steadily getting their pay raised, cause everyone on here is talking about how crappy it is and isn't going.

You may now shut up and sit down.

Hardline Rob

04-11-07, 05:52 AM

Hi all,

Been a long time since I last posted... just catching up on the latest and greatest... Seen Shedsters post. Since he failed to understand what I was trying to say in the post #25 since he refers to being used and "his" per diem being used by companies etc.... The entire post was designed to explain that there is only one pot of money when doing a firm fixed bid. Hardline always gives 100% of the MI&E. We pay for lodging and do not give the employee the money for that, we pay for all lodging costs. We get good lodging and the policy is for every man to have his own room and bathroom.

* The exception being Iraq as we have no control over it due to security. We are provided lodging by the state department and must to live under the conditions provided due to logistics and security.

The terms are discussed before anyone is hired and you always have the right to say no. If you know prior to taking the job, what is expected and how things work, How do you figure you are being used? It is usually logistics that dictate where we stay. Ie travel to and from the jobsite, security etc. Reservations are made from the office to ensure you have a place to stay when you arrive... That is why HII picks, pays, and chooses the lodging. It also limits how many company credit cards that must be out. It ensures timeliness and continuity in the job.... Furthermore, sometimes, it provides a budget in case the job runs over.

The point was... If all per diem budgeted is the employee’s money.... who pays when the timelines budgeted are not met. Are you going to take all the per diem you "saved" by staying in a $50 room drawing $150 lodging and use it for the 45 day extension? No you expect the company to pay...are you going to work for free when the project goes over budget? Are you going to be willing to work 7 days a week to keep the project on time? Depending on whose fault it is sometimes you can get some more money on the contract... more often than not you just eat it. Where do you expect that money to come from? If the company loses money on every job how long do expect to be employed?

Seems kind of one way to expect all money that is “yours” to be given out and you accept no responsibility for anything….

Do you intend to us to give you all the lodging money upfront?.... Then who pays for the road rangers that bail because a "better" location suddenly became available? That money budgeted is now gone if paid out in advance…. As well as now we need more airfare….Will you pay out of your pocket and then wait for reimbursement? What about all the money mismanagers who live pay day to pay day.... expect them to sleep in a tent until their first lodging payment arrives? Would you also like us to give you what we budgeted for airfares? Take that responsibility too….

So I assume since you expect all MI&E and lodging is yours.... then I can pass all responsibility to you as well as far as finding a room making reservations, logistics from the airport, travel to the job site, etc will be yours as well.... So when you find the 20 dollar a night cheaper lodging 30 miles away, you will also want to expense the additional taxi fares back to company too? It is easier, cheaper and more logistically feasible to keep the team together….that is why we provide the lodging. Our jobs are usually short and we do not have the luxury of chasing everyone down scattered across an unfamiliar place. It is not security conscious, it is not logistically feasible.

I post to try to explain why certain things are. Yes some companies use the employees....We do not. We provide lodging and give 100% of the state department recommended Meals and incidentals..... It is partly logistics, partly babysitting; partly budget, as to why we do not give full per diem on our jobs. Competition is tight for these jobs.... we do the best we can to fairly compensate.... if we give full per diem, would you accept lower hourly wages?

We pay higher than average hourly wages and pay the lodging versus giving you the lodging money.... You earn your hourly wage, the lodging rates are a crap shoot depending on where you go. Sometimes you will lose money. Since all of our employees are intended to be long term workers, we thought this was a fairer way to go. Hope this clarifies things a little clearer.- We do the best we can-rob

mrbreeze38

04-11-07, 06:02 AM

Rob, I agree with most of your letter. In response to the "babysitting", I agree there are men who need this service, but I also have seen where it is in direct relation to how men are treated. Treat the men like men and you will get men, treat them like children and that's exactly what you will get.

Hardline Rob

04-11-07, 06:13 AM

I agree 100%... Maybe baby sitting wasn't the politically right term.... but sometimes that is what it seems like you are doing. Give an inch and many will take a mile or totally abuse the latitude you offered under the use good common sense and be professional instruction. It is easier to start out as a hard ass and get easier than to give all latitude and then try and reign everyone back in that just don't get it.-rob

mexfishguide

04-11-07, 10:00 AM

I can see Robs point, do I agree? not really.

To ask these things out of employees, means you should be willing to share
profits with them. All most workers are expected to be, is, good honest tradesmen, not some one that takes the responsibility to complete work as per the companys estimate! That makes him a sub-contractor.

I tell people I work with, When on the job, I give you all I have, don't lie to my supervisor, are steal from my employer. I work daly to complete the project, if I am able to complete it a head of time, thats good, it gives the co. a little more operating money. I don't expect part of the money, I am paid by the hour.

My many years of contracting, I paid my help as per the agreement between
us, if I lost money I lost it not them!!!!! The estimate of time needed and money needed, to finish a project, how can a tradesman be expected to
take the responsibility to bring the job in under the bid.

Example, a lot of us are familiar with, Astana, The estimated cost was so far off,6 months free labor by a 100 men would not have saved that project!!!!!!

As far as you, are someone else telling me where I must lodge so you can be
happy, will not work, at least in my case. You want to tell me where at in town, I must stay? What apartment & building I must stay in, all these with out even discussing it with me is not good. We should agree on where I stay and the cost, the remainder of the gov, listed MEI should be mine.

When I am on a project and ask the office for materials, tools, and what kind of manpower, and are disregarded, the job goes over do not look to me for the money lost.

In defense of the contractors and this site, I have tried to get the site to set standards for our tradesmen, if you hire a craftman off this site? I would hope they are as expected and not some wantabe with no technical knowledge.

No way will contractor and craftsman, be able to split responsibility equally
between themselves.:wtf

Ever time a contractor sets his name on a bid, he is bidding on making a lot of money, and to do so he starts by trying the lowest priced labor he can.
He will not listen to his experienced axpats and use more americans no he wants more cheep labor, and gets what he pays for.

I am on a project right now, where I could save the firm big money, by hireing a few top hands, but no we will get them from Mexico, Philipnes,
Turkey, etc. and will not even entain hirine a few good reliable expats.

When it come's to a subject like this, I have to preach on hiring americans.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

Hardline Rob

04-11-07, 10:45 AM

Exactly Mex fish... the contractor and the employee can not split responsibilities. That is why we choose and pay for the lodging versus giving you the money. If we give you all the money involved then it is only fair that you do all the work and logistics that comes with that money. It is one or the other... I think you are far more used to long jobs.... most of ours are not like that and logistically it is impossible to give everyone Carte blanche. It is not about screwing anyone out of anything. It is about what works and what can be managed on a short timeline.

We split profits with our employees (when we make any)- through increased benefits- we are currently paying 100% of the employees insurance costs as well as most of the families... we have a 25% match on 401k, and we paid out over 100k in bonuses to employees last year. We also work very hard on trying to keep everyone employed. It would be nearly impossible to stay competitive if you are paying a higher wage than everyone else AND the full boat. Not to mention the cherry picking problem... pay the full boat versus a higher hourly rate and you run into the issues of staffing problems with nominal per diem posts. Why go somewhere with a low per diem rate when you can hold out and wait for the gravy train. We don't need road rangers.... we need full time employees...

I am curious to know what companies are paying the full boat? How were their benefits? We get mostly firm fixed work, if we were doing cost plus jobs I would be glad to give it up....the option has not been available to us.

So who has worked for what companies that offers full MI&E and Full lodging rates? Was the hourly rate (the average or lower)? Did you have support and logistics for transportation, finding lodging etc? How long ago was this?

Looking to hear what the reality is.....How often is the full boat available?Post up!-Rob