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The Wild Rover
03-21-07, 04:55 AM
A few years ago, I was faced with a dilema when a certain project manager and electrical super on an overseas government project both wanted me to install high dollar equipment in an unappropriate manner for which the product, project specifications, and equipment manufacturers instructions was not intended. (Project specifications are always important, remember that!) I refused to install the application requested, and the backlash shook the project from the foundations to the home office. I have enjoyed a long overseas career, and that company has gone by the way of the Dodo...extinct, andalthough the employees that agreed to install the equipment are still employed by various contractors today, I have to admit they looked ridiculous removing the incorrectly installed equipment after a well worded letter on my attorneys' stationary mysteriously found it's way to the Govt. DC office, with a CC to the employers home office, detailing the entire fiasco. Needless to say, I was not popular with the Project manager or the Electrical super for the remainder of the project, or to this day for that matter, and I finished that project in a professional and workmanlike manner. The Super has been on several overseas projects with me since, and good men let bygones be bygones and get on with their LIVES...but during the ordeal, I was asked to sign a letter, from the company, explaining my side of the story. I agreed to a set time frame for a meeting, and immediately contacted my attorney. It was the best thing I could have done. They were hogtied as to letting me go for lack of work or a firing, as I was performing my job according to my contract job description...although suddenly I got all the dirty work. I survived, and with my good reputation intact. I would like to repeat what my lawyer told me...and man, did it chap their asses as to the way I did it...

" If any representative of your employer/contractor (foremen too!) or general contractor ever asks you to sign a document that accuses you of having done something inappropriate or against company policy, do not sign it. Your employer's representative may tell you that your signature on the document only indicates that he talked with you and it does not mean you agree with what it says. He may even point to a clause on the document that states something to this effect, "Your signature is an acknowledgement that you have received this document, not that you agree with it." Whether that statement is in fine print or bold print, do not sign. Instead, make a note on that document, in ink, worded like this:

"Note: Please see the employee's attached response to the (Name of Contractor Here) Company accusations ."

But do not sign, anywhere, even after you write that note. Hand the letter back to your contractors/employer’s representative and tells him that you would like a copy, and that you will provide a letter for him to attach to this document. Your boss's letter will become part of your permanent employee file whether you sign it or not. Your boss will just write on it, "Employee refused to sign." If this happens, there will be no indication in your file that you challenged the accusation. Your note on that document will be the only indication that anyone investigating the situation must look for additional information. Make sure you ask for a copy, better yet, ask for the original, for your lawyer. You don't need to have a lawyer, just the threat shakes them up sometimes...

After the meeting, write your own version of what happened, clearly, or, if nothing happened, write a letter that states you are being falsely accused. If there are witnesses, name them. Make sure you state in your letter that you want it to become part of your permanent record as an attachment to your boss's letter dated ___ (fill in the date). Also state that your employers letter has been annotated with the statement: "Note: Please see the employee's attached response to the (Name of Contractor Here) Company accusations ," or whatever words you wrote, so that he cannot simply reproduce another copy without your note on it and substitute that copy in your file. Two weeks later, ask to see the records in your permanent file and verify that your note is on your boss's letter and that your letter is attached to it. If not, write a letter to your boss explaining what you found and ask for the records to be updated; copy your boss's boss and/or a human resources manager, and attorney on this letter. "

When you are asked to sign a document like this, you can be sure that your employer is building a case to terminate you, or hurt your career, and possibly damage your reputation and PROTECT their own. Believe me, there are vindictive, revengeful, hurtful people out there that will try to hurt you later on down the road, or in life, any way they can. Just update your resume and begin a job search. Move on with your life, never let hurtful people stress you out, and impact your life. They are small, selfish people and will eventually hang themselves. You can bargain this much...you were looking for a job when you came here, you'll be looking for one when you leave. Always consider what an old timer told me 20 some years ago...Construction is the only industry that continually works itself out of a job.:cheers

Gabriele
03-21-07, 05:54 AM
All I ever was told I had to sign was my paycheck. I've had simular things happen in the phone company world, like signing company policies, etc. We got that changed to where the boss could only indicate that you recieved the material, we would never sign it.

Pops
03-21-07, 08:58 AM
Ah the good ole days, Gabe. Once Bell "lost" our pay checks and told us that we would get them "in a few days". We all just sat around looking into space until one of the managers drove 150 miles round trip and back with our checks. No pay, no work. And this was not just a union issue, there are state and local laws and ordinances regarding delivery of pay, etc. They do vary from state to state but mostly they say the company has to pay when the pay is due. None of which applies overseas, I guess, just another example of what you have to put up with.:banghead For the privelge of working overseas.

WR, This was a GREAT post and very to the point, thanks.

TheJester
03-21-07, 09:00 AM
I like these. Very informative, and timeless. Good post.

Gabriele
03-21-07, 10:06 AM
Pops, a good one was when AT&T (the original one) after devesiture said all timesheets had to be in our office to the times lady, well with no backup for her the company decided that since our time sheets didn't go in by 10AM the pay would be delayed until the next payroll. Now I figured out real quick that I had not failed to perform my obligation that I shouldn't have to wait 2 weeks more and I let my bosses know this, I won't go into all the details, but I had my paycheck when it was due and on time, the union wouldn't even back me, while the others had to wait or get pay advances. I got a bundle of stories.

Speaking of which, take a look at www.hollywoodunlisted.com a buddy of mine wrote that book.

Junior
03-21-07, 11:33 AM
Any chance we can start a "Wild Rovers Filing Cabinet," a place for anyone in need of solid, sound advice on, it seems, any topic? Good post (again) WR.

mexfishguide
03-21-07, 12:24 PM
WR takes advantage of what he hears in the Tropicana in Vegas.:wtf

Sound information and well written.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

HeadRat
03-21-07, 01:35 PM
Any chance we can start a "Wild Rovers Filing Cabinet," a place for anyone in need of solid, sound advice on, it seems, any topic? Good post (again) WR.That would be where it's at: "Helpful Overseas Tips From The Wild Rover"

Buba
03-21-07, 04:13 PM
Gabriele,

I was an original Long Liner, been doing overseas work since I retired in 99.

Keeping on the subject, that was a very informative post by the Wildrover.

Buba

P.S. This is my first post.

The Wild Rover
03-21-07, 04:48 PM
Welcome to the site, and thanks, I'm glad you liked the post. Please jump in anytime.:cheers

Gabriele
03-21-07, 06:26 PM
Gabriele,

I was an original Long Liner, been doing overseas work since I retired in 99.

Keeping on the subject, that was a very informative post by the Wildrover.

Buba

P.S. This is my first post.

Hey Buba, welcome. there are several old bell heads on the site keep posting , I've been mostly working in the US but did do several years overseas and really enjoyed the work and travel.:cheers

Pops
03-22-07, 03:58 AM
Great idea, JUNIOR! A "From the Desk of WildRover" filing cabinet.

And I know he absorbed some of this knowlege through the side of his head while it was lying in a pool of stale Stella or something similar. All we gotta do is figure out how to filter it out properly.

Keep up the good info, WR....I want to copy and paste part of this your original post to save for future reference, if it is okay?

The Wild Rover
03-22-07, 04:23 AM
sure, copy away...but remember, some of the names, places and dates may have been fictionalized and changed to protect the infirmed, innocent, neglected and shut-in...at least I remember as much, being only the weak, inconvienent memory portion of the brain cells are being destroyed and traumatized...

Pops
03-22-07, 05:51 AM
Naw, I was going to copy the "what to do" part, not the "what I did" part.
Thanks WR.

CAPTAIN MORGAN
03-30-09, 09:30 PM
I WISH I HAD HEARD WR'S ADVICE A FEW YEARS BACK!! I HAD AN EXPERIENCE THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE.

SOME TIME BACK, OVERSEAS......................... SOME OF MY BUDDIES AND I HAD A NEWYEARS GET TOGETHER AT A LOCAL CLUB.:cheers WE SCOUTED OUT THE CITY AND FOUND A PLACE THAT WAS NICE AND QUIET TO AVOID ALL THE USUAL OVERWHELMING CROWDS. WELL.........COME NEWYEARS EVE....................IT SEEMS 20,000 OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TOO!!!!! COME TO FIND OUT THIS WAS THE MOST INFAMOUS CLUB IN THE COUNTRY. WELL ANYWAY, ABOUT 5:00AM THINGS GOT OUT OF HAND. A COUPLE OF MY BUDDIES GOT JUMPED. TURNS OUT NOT EVERYONE SHARES THE LOVE FOR AMERICANS. I DID EVERYTHING I COULD TO DIFFUSE THE SITUATION AND GET MY FELLOW AMERICANS OUT OF HARMS WAY. REMINDING EVERYONE THAT NONE OF MY GUYS THREW A SINGLE PUNCH. WE WERE AFRAID OF LOOSING OUR JOBS, AS WE WERE TOLD THAT FIGHTING WOULD RESULT IN TERMINATION.:nono:
WELL, I GOT EVERYONE OUT OF THERE AND BACK TO OUR HOTEL ROOMS. CLEANED UP THE BLOOD CALMED EVERYONE DOWN. EVERTHING WAS GOING TO BE ALRIGHT. OR SO I HAD HOPED............................................. ..........MONDAY MORNING, THE COMPANY SECURITY REP CALLED ME IN TO HIS OFFICE. NEWS HAD ALREADY REACHED HIM. IN THE COURSE OF HIS "INVESTIGATION" HE FELT I WAS IN THE WRONG FOR MY ACTIONS. :wtf IN HIS WORDS "WHEN I SAW THAT THINGS WERE GOING BAD, I SHOULD HAVE TURNED MY BACK AND WALK AWAY" HE WAS TALKING ABOUT LEAVING MY GUYS THERE AND JUST WALK AWAY!!!!!! AND THIS GUY WAS AN EX MARINE???:wtf BECAUSE I DID NOT DO JUST THAT, I WAS TOLD TO SIGN A PIECE OF PAPER THAT SAID THAT I AKNOWLEDGE THAT WAS WRONG FOR MY ACTIONS AND HAD EMBERASSED MY COUNTRY AND COMPANY AND SO ON................................................ .........:blahslap AND MAY BE TERMINATED IF ANY MORE TROUBLE COMES UP. AND OF COURSE I WAS PISSED!!!!!! I FELT THAT I DID NO WRONG. I REFUSED TO SIGN IT AT FIRST. AND WAS INFORMED THAT IF I REFUSE, I WILL BE TERMINATED IMEDIATELY. WELL....... IN FEAR OF LOOSING MY JOB, I SIGNED IT. HE SAID THAT THE PAPER WOULD GO IN MY FILE AND REALLY MEANT NOTHING UNLESS I GOT IN TROUBLE AGAIN. YEA , RIGHT, BULLSHIT!!!!

I SIGNED IT BECUSE I WAS PUSHED INTO BELEIVING THAT I HAD NO CHOICE. I WAS SO AFRAID OF LOOSING MY JOB, I JUST TOOK IT IN THE ASS AND WENT ON. AFTER ALL, I WAS 9000 MILES AWAY FROM HOME AND HAD NO ONE TO TELL ME ANY DIFFERENT. OF COURSE I WAS TOLD THAT I COULD NOT TALK ABOUT ANY OF THIS BECAUSE OF SECURITY ISSUES..... BULLSHIT. ONCE AGAIN, I DIDNT KNOW ANY DIFFERENT.

SOON AFTER WE ALL SIGNED THESE PAPERS, BY THE WAY, THE OTHER GUY'S PAPERWORK WAS MUCH HARSHER THAN MINE. NEWS WAS ALL OVER THE JOBSITE. OUR MANAGEMENT WAS PISSED!!!! BUT IN OUR DEFENSE!!! COMPLAINTS WORKED ALL THE WAY UP THE FOOD CHAIN........ NO LESS THA A FEW HOURS LATER I WAS QUESTIONED BY ONE OF THE PROJECT MANAGERS. AFTER I EXPLAINED WHAT HAPPENED, HE SAID THAT I HAD DONE NOTHING WRONG AND COMMENDED ME FOR MY ACTIONS. HE WAS GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS!! I LATER FOUND OUT THAT THESE "LETTERS" DISSAPPEARED AND NOTHING WOULD BE ON ANYONES RECORD.

IF IT WERE NOT FOR SOMEONE STANDING UP FOR ME, I WOULD HAVE DONE WHATEVER IT TOOK TO KEEP MY JOB. THE SECURITY REP KNEW THIS AND BY INTIMMIDATION, HE WAS GOING TO PUSH THE LIMITS OF HIS AUTHORIY. WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, HIS AUTHORITY IS NOTHING MORE THAN THAT OF MALL SECURITY. BUT, IF THE COMPANY PROJECT MANAGER WAS NOT SO HONEST......HE COULD HAVE SCREWED ME TOO.
ONLY BACAUSE I DID NOT KNOW ANY BETTER. AND ALL THE WHILE EVERYONE WAS TELLING ME THAT I HAD NO RIGHTS.........DONT BELEIVE IT!!!!!!!!!
YOU ONLY LOOSE YOUR RIGHTS THE MOMENT AFTER YOU SIGN THAT PAPER.
SO.........NO MATER HOW INTIMMIDATING THEY ARE.......AGREE TO IT BEFOR YOU SIGN IT. IF YOU HAVE A LAWYER, LET HIM SEE IT!
IF ITS NOT ACCURATE, REQUEST FOR IT TO BE CHANGED TO REPRESENT THE "TRUTH" IF THEY WILL NOT, WRITE A LETTER FOR AN ATATCHMENT TO THE PAPER IN QUESTION. BUT STILL DO NOT SIGN THEIR PAPER.
THEY MAY USE ALL THE INTIMMIDATION THEY HAVE IN THEIR BAG OF TRICKS BUT, WHEN YOU SIGN THAT PAPER, IT BECOMES A LEAGAL DOCUMENT.


ITS GOOD TO HAVE ADVICE FROM SOMEONE LOOKIN OUT FOR YOU.:rockwoot: WHEN IN DOUBT, ASK TO CONSULT YOUR LAWYER FIRST.

Longrider
05-05-09, 09:42 AM
[QUOTE=The Wild Rover;10568]A few years ago, I was faced with a dilema
You don't need to have a lawyer, just the threat shakes them up sometimes...

You're correct in this statement for sure Wild Rover, A certain overseas contractor tried to terminate me for co-operating with DCMA about power generators and why some of them were down, I had an explanation but the managers and supers didn't want me to tell the DCMA anything (it was worded very harshly to me) However, I co-operated with the DCMA and then the attempt to fire me for 'insubordination' papers were filled out. Of course, as suggested I REFUSED TO SIGN followed by the threats to fire me on the spot. I told those involved that they could fire me and I would go home and spend a few days with my family after which I could pretty much guarantee that all of them would be subpeoned to court over the matter. At 2000 hrs, a knock on my door!! the managers and others involved in this matter asked me if I would consider a transfer!! I agreed, and contrary to policy, at 2030 hrs I was on my way to another camp with all of my stuff piled on top of a Humvee!! The threat of a lawsuit was what prevented my termination and of course, the fact that I was not guilty of insubordination and never would be. Good tips and info in the rest of your post too.

liqwidgold
05-05-09, 12:54 PM
that is a great post rover. i'll take what i can from that. take care.

mexfishguide
05-06-09, 02:27 AM
I try to limit my name signing to my paycheck. That is after the contract - never, I repeat never, - sign anything even close, to an admission of wrong doing!!!!! We must try to maintain a certain amount of integrity, and honesty,
if some thing is wrong, its wrong, try to stand up and be counted!!!!!!!
My convictions some times ( read many times ) get me in deep water - but if I tell it like it is, at no time will I have to make up a lie to cover my previous lies. Some of us have, and will continue to stand up for whats right - even to the point of loosing our job.:rockwoot: Stand up folks, as I wrote to DOS and OBO, we here on site are dedicated to quality installations, and by this protect the tax payers money. I know get off the site.:banghead

Take Care
Fish Guide :cheers

Very proud to be a citizen of the united states of america.
God bless america.
Stand up for whats right.