Cajun, What's The Final Word?

[wkdivr]

:banghead What was the final word with Hardline?

[thickcajun]

I just cut all ties with hardline. I really don't care to deal with people who run a buisness like that. Plus i have some people on it looking into things. I'll keep everyone posted:cheers

[Natch]

I just cut all ties with hardline. I really don't care to deal with people who run a buisness like that. Plus i have some people on it looking into things. I'll keep everyone posted:cheers

Hey thickcajun,
I'm not sure how old you are, but you must be one of us old school idiots that Hardline Rob said would NEVER understand the 'New Way' of doing things overseas. Seems to be a lot like the 'old way' to me.
And you will need to really keep an eye on your back while working for Gilford.
They will stick you in the ass and then laugh at you while you try to get what they owe you. Just the same, good luck in Paris.

[thickcajun]

Hey thickcajun,
I'm not sure how old you are, but you must be one of us old school idiots that Hardline Rob said would NEVER understand the 'New Way' of doing things overseas. Seems to be a lot like the 'old way' to me.

Actually Natch i'm a new school idiot, taught by old school idiots like yourself.
I was brought up in a very pro-union family. True union not the gimme-gimme unions of today. But the true honest days pay for an honest days wage. I'm a firm believer in going the extra mile," if someone is going to return the favor."

Yeah rob and those guys over at hardline try to make you think there something special. But there just like anyone of these other companies on this site. They have there watch dogs ang goons log in daily to see what's going on.

Mr. rat can we create a so call section for hands only?

[mexfishguide]

I wish you a lot better luck then jester and spn977 had on there paris trip for Gillford.

I ask Hardline what the hell happened with you, his answer not much different then you posted.

Hope you have a better job in Paris the some of the other hands have had.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

[wkdivr]

Sure hope everything works out for you! I hate to shit like that happen, just when I thought they were a stand up company. (and there's less and less of them out there, these days!):banghead :banghead

[Hardline Rob]

Response to all.... Thick Cajun's situation was not pretty, but not fair to blast the company either. He was slotted and hired to go Vienna. Office has a standard procedure of sending a team of four to every job... Welder originally slotted had a family emergency and could not go, Office in the effort of being proactive asked me to find our next member of Hardline.... I offered Thick Cajun a job.... we start chasing country clearance for him... meanwhile team leader arrives on site, calls office and told them three man team was all that was needed as he was certified welder and work load was not heavy enough to send another. I spoke with Jeff, who is running Berlin job, as he said he may need another welder, ask if wanted to extend the offer to Thick Cajun as he had quit his job to come to work for us, didn't seem right to bait and switch him with Iraq but I would make him the offer to come out here... could he use him in Berlin? Said he would call and interview... In the meantime, thick Cajun sends a nasty gram to the PM in charge of Vienna saying how fucked up the situation is... Of course PM is like WTF who is this and why is he mad at me? Jeff's Telephone interview doesn't go that well.... Jeff doesn't like his attitude and offers less than what I did.... the side I heard from Jeff was he was pretty nasty with him and was only interested in being a supervisor... Jeff is not going to give him a supervisor slot until he is trained in what we are doing....don't know but suspect Jeff was equally offensive as being upset because of email to PM in Vienna... I can understand Thick Cajuns perspective as he is getting the run around from half a dozen different people and all things being told are different..... SO No job agreement on Berlin.... I hear about it.... Do not need him in Iraq but feel bad he is being screwed and offer position in Iraq, offer more money.... we come to agreement... I send memo to office not to send him business class, and to call and explain if bails on his own accord we expect to paid back for all invested in getting him here as the last two we kissed their asses and sent business class, gave all they asked for, lasted less than a month.... Cost us well over 10k each to get them here... Dumb ass in office sends short blunt email to Thick Cajun with note here is robs terms, do you agree with this or not.... which in turn give thick Cajun feeling of what the fuck these guys are trying to rope me in and trap me in Iraq.....Which is perfectly understandable a reaction giving the information at hand and the delivery of it. Whole point of the office being directed to CALL him and explain everything would have to avoid all this and explain why things were the way they were. I only run Baghdad at present, I offered him a position here and had he came here would have taken care of him well. Yes the office is chaotic, as we do not have the luxury of a dozen office people managing the teams, we with all 35 employees of which 33 are in the field wear many hats. We are flexible and have to adapt to the changes as they occur. If you expect that everything is in stone and can be planned months in months in advance and always come off with out a hitch.....be real, it's not going to happen. Did thick Cajun get hosed.... maybe, had he been a little less mouthy he would be in Berlin right now, at the same rates as promised for Vienna, had he been a little more trusting he could be in Iraq.... either way we did all we could to make it right.... I have no ill will toward thick cajun and think we both missed out as he seemed squared away.... and had he gave it a chance would most likely been happy with Hardline... I have no problems with assertive people as I come across as an ass more often than not, rarely is it intentional. However he had poor timing with his emails and attitude on the phone...as people were going out of their way to extend him offers.... When it appears that someone is un appreciative, or that you owe them something the offer gets withdrawn really quickly or down graded.... I felt comfortable with him and talked the same language he did on the phone.... I do not think Jeff got the same warm and fuzzy or had a different expectation when he called.... don't know what happened....As I said before I hope all works out for Thick Cajun.... For the record... I am the only one of Hardline that has a rat pack membership. I take full responsibility for all posted and said here from hardline's perspective. Sorry Thick Cajun, I did the best I could within the given circumstances.-rob

[The Wild Rover]

It is good to have both sides of every story before making a decision or rash judgement. I believe Thickcajun's side of the story, and I believe Hardline Robs' side of the story, as both are telling the truth as they see the facts and relaying them to us. In this business it is so easy to have a simple misunderstanding get blown way out of proportion. I am glad to hear that a disagreement can be worked out when presented in a rational format...it has a chance to be sorted out through discussion and mutual understanding. I hope things work out for both of you, and maybe your paths will cross again under different circumstances, and perhaps the differences between you can be smoothed over to both of your benefits and advancements...Now, lets all give each other a nice, quick, no one is looking reach around. :2cents

[Pops]

Yes, great to have both sides, but it sounds like Hardline's office people think of us as tools, not human beings, and they don't mean to offend, they just didnt take the time to know they might. I don't blame ThickCajun and I don't see what Rob could have done differently. Another case of the back office not being in touch.

[diablo]

Well I'm sorry things didn't work out for you thickcajun. I was looking forward to working with you, jester has told me nothing but good things about you.
And for the record I was standing beside Rob when he got the call that they didn't want you in vienna, and he was extremely pissed at the situation. That situation was out of his hands.
Also what we are paid over here is a salary based figure. We are not working 70hrs a week, which is what the salary is based on. So it ends up being more than 40/hr. if you figure the actual hours worked.
I have been in almost the same situation, and I know it sucks. Maybe we can meet up on another job.

[thickcajun]

I sent the nasty little e-mail after i talked with Jeff. Interview me my ass. He wanted to see if i would farm myself out to other contractor till a later date. Berlin didn't need a welder until october that was the first thing out of his mouth. And yes rob i will blast hardline till the day i die. it's my opinion and that's that. Whaterever you say i still quit my job to be forced into a situation i didn't really won't to be part of at the time. Diablo thanks for the nice words be safe over and come home in one piece. To everyone else enjoying the soapopera this could happen to you. i don't want anyboby to make any decisions based on what i have said. this is an open forum and i'm just speaking my mind. Freedom of speech right!

[Hardline Rob]

I as Hardline Rob have in the neighborhood of 50 posts, and this makes me a watchdog goon? Hell I thought I was a valuable productive member of the ratpack? Maybe I have misunderstood the purpose of this website, I thought it was an information conduit for people looking for jobs to find jobs…. As well as discuss how things could be better for the collective group. And yes I do try to keep up to date as to what the group thinks and try to dispel what I see as misinformation. Once my membership lapses I will be on my merry way.

For you specifically Natch…. The old way you mention is nothing more than greed of the companies… What I tried to get you to understand as the “new way” refers to survival and getting work. What I painfully tried to explain to the “old dogs” is that the day of time and material jobs, cost plus work, and the other ride it into the ground type jobs have fallen prey to firm fixed price. Learn the lesson quick, as all the bitching in the world will only get you priced right out of a job. Blame the contractors all you want about the per diem woes, what you fail to realize is that the rules of the game changed when General Williams started his program. The government will continue to cut down requirements for work requiring cleared Americans… they currently cost too much with the ever shrinking budgets and the government is experimenting with how to avoid those costs. Yes they will learn the lesson again in how much it costs in security by cutting us out… but it will take a major scandal and a few years.

Thick Cajun, you could be working here in Iraq with us today and pocketing 12k a month. I really do hope that Paris works out for you as I know of several promised work there and it never materialized. As the old saying goes… a bird in the hand is worth three in the field. You talk big time about work ethic and going the extra distance etc etc…. I think you want to cherry pick the jobs and when push came to shove anything less than Vienna was beneath you. With Hardline you have to ride for the brand, and go where we have the work…. The good part is we will keep you employed year round. No having to hunt for employment every 3 months….

As for the farming out comment…. That is one of the ways we keep our people under one company, they keep their same benefits, their same rate of pay, 401k insurance etc… we farm you out if we can’t get the contract. We keep the stipulations of one man per room, per bathroom and state department rates for MI&E. The drawback to this is what? Call us what you will. We only hire about 5 people per year… your opportunity came and went.

Next years hiring will be better, we just opened a division in Germany, and we will have a division in UK in place next here as we finished the paperwork for it this month… Furthermore we have partnered with a professional staffing company to professionally pursue work fulltime for our employees regardless who has the contracts. So if anyone out there is interested in a hiring hall type set up…. Working for one company and us finding you your next jobs…. Send me an email. Or sit back and keep bitching that there are no jobs in paradise and stay unemployed.-rob

[Sasquatch]

Seems strange I am pocketing 12 grand a year and not in Iraq. Go figure.

:nono:

duh 12 grand a month.
what was I thinking :wtf

[Hardline Rob]

Sasquatch you are an electrician… right? My guess is you have done this awhile, You probably have certifications and licenses coming out of your ass. Your normal rate of pay is 25% or more than a laborer, maybe that much higher than most carpenters and welders. You are also counting your per diem, some of which you must spend to offset your expenses of eating and getting around,….So let’s compare apples to apples….

Are there ANY carpenters or welders pulling $50 bucks an hour anywhere at present? This is the average pay my people are earning for the hours they are working.
We are currently one man to a room, each with their own bathroom, after being here 120 days I pay for their ticket to the house with 2 weeks pay at their normal rates….

[mexfishguide]

I for one do not want to loose you and your firey comments. They are good for the site and so are your company side comments.And yes you have about the same thoughts of the site as I do.

It is hard to stay at times, with some of the comments made by some of these caracters.

Keep working for the good of your hands AND Hardline, if Hardline makes no money neither will the hands.:wtf

I think you have some dam good points, I may not agree with everything you say, but with the most of it I do.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

[randy799]

now let me start out with saying cajun i know how the shit feels and for Rob i can understand the situation your in. in my opinion the guy i would be wanting to talk to bout this FACE TO FACE would be the fella that decided he didnt want anyone else cause he thinks he can do it without anyone new. but i agree with Rob bout one thing i joined ratpack in the search of jobs and info as to where and when the work is going on and who to contact. more than half of all i read is a bunch of grown ass men and women in the construction field acting like DAMN KIDS in school complaining bout everyone else. the simple fact of it is you get offered a job and if things dont work out,yes you have your right to feel pissed, just deal with it and find another. this happens to us all if you been the field anytime at all. and yes like Rob i am on the edge of dropping my membership as i hear enough complaining bout everyone in daily life to last a lifetime i need to pay to hear it when i am wanting to find a job and PAYING FOR IT!:blahslap

[HeadRat]

Are there ANY carpenters or welders pulling $50 bucks an hour anywhere at present? This is the average pay my people are earning for the hours they are working.
We are currently one man to a room, each with their own bathroom, after being here 120 days I pay for their ticket to the house with 2 weeks pay at their normal rates….Out of curiosity, WHERE are these carpenters working? If it is Iraq, wasn't the rate going to be $65/hour? Secondly, where did you find these people?

[Hardline Rob]

Yes this is for Iraq. The pay rates you are referring to is for the second project of building out the cleared areas, not installing doors and windows. Our average rate for a trained skilled installer is $28-$36 add 25% for Danger pay and 25% for hardship post (after 45 days) if you want to treat this as if state department employees (which contractors are not) and the rate of pay for Iraq would be $42-$54 dollars per hour for a skilled experienced physical security installer.

Currently working on site- I have one employee that came somewhat by way of Ratpack…. Damn good one too….He was also highly recommended by a personal friend on the site he was working, my friend contacted me and asked if I was taking on any new hires…. Other two hired from directly via rat pack…. One came, stayed about 2 weeks, pissed off everyone on site threatened to leave if not given a vehicle assigned to him….I told him to make good on it and go. Second, stayed 2 ½ months left…. Both of them were being paid even more than that posted highest pay rate (based on average hours worked) and flew business class. Lesson I learned is if you give everyone everything out the box there is no incentives left to earn. It won’t happen again. Company out over 20K, which impacts all the workers that are staying and are good as it cuts back on the amount of any bonus they can get….

[Natch]

[QUOTE=Hardline Rob]
For you specifically Natch…. The old way you mention is nothing more than greed of the companies… What I tried to get you to understand as the “new way” refers to survival and getting work. What I painfully tried to explain to the “old dogs” is that the day of time and material jobs, cost plus work, and the other ride it into the ground type jobs have fallen prey to firm fixed price. Learn the lesson quick, as all the bitching in the world

Rob, maybe you didn't understand the context in which I used your words, 'New Way'. I had exactly the same thing happen to me that happened to Thickcajun. I quit a job a few years back and then got screwed due to company mismanagement, much like what I just heard in here.
I may be one of the older dogs, but I don't need you to explain anything to me. Painfully or otherwise. Why is it that guys like you think you have all the latest inside info and the rest of us are completely out of the loop? You have no idea who I am, where I am, or what I might be into.
You may be up there in your company and you may be on your way to riches beyond this old farts imagination, but here's what I hope for you.
I hope that when you grow up, you learn how to talk to and with people, instead of talking down to them. Good luck in your ventures.
:cheers

[Hardline Rob]

Natch, Not trying to offend anyone, just seems that you throw a few zingers my way fairly regularly... or jump on the bandwagon when someone else does....I am trying to share what I see with all and sometimes get slapped around for it... not my intent to talk down to anyone. Just trying to show the other side of the story and the view from a companies perspective. My apologies sir for coming across that way.-rob

[SupportRat]

Bawha ha ha ha, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are going to basically farm out work and be an employment/job placement agency. Where is the NEW idea in this? Or the New Way? Isn't there a company called Atlantic Group and others that do that same EXACT THING? I'm looking for the new idea

[Hardline Rob]

It is not a new idea or even the new way that was being talked about…. The first posts that got me and Natch off on the wrong foot referred to the “New” way the contracts were being set up. I wrote a long explanation as to how they are being bid and set up now versus the “old way”… That string was pulled. As normal here on Ratpack you have jumped in on one sentence with a bunch of static without knowing or considering the whole story behind the statement. What you are doing is taking the sentence way out of context.

As for the farming idea, many companies do it, have tried it, etc and are doing it. It is a way of maintaining your quality people employed when contract supply is low. If you find maintaining peoples employment a laughing matter or find it offensive that someone would try to farm you out…. Then essentially you are saying everyone wants to be on their own hunting for work contract to contract. Works well for the job whores who have loyalty to no one but themselves… I am sure someone out there would like the security of one company trying to keep them employed for the long haul. The thought process is to keep with one company is to keep your insurance and benefits the same regardless who holds the contracts… the only way we are approaching this differently is we are partnering with an established professional staffing company, whose sole purpose is to advertise and solicit jobs for people currently in between jobs. Most other companies only look for their current employees jobs between contracts when times are slow. I think that is a big difference and may even qualify as a “new” idea.

Second part of the game plan is to allow experts to work within the Hardline infrastructure…. Most of you guys talk big crap about how you would have or could have ran things differently if you only had the chance…. Here it is, got the smarts to bid a job, get a job, and run the job, Hardline will allow you to run it through our infrastructure….. Most businesses fail because people cannot do both, run the jobs and run all the other crap it takes to stay in business…. Build a reputation, start up capital, chase down the required insurances, clearances, run the office, make the travel arrangements, do the procurement, maintain pay role, solicit business, establish relationships with clients etc etc…. We have the established infrastructure, what we don’t have is the expertise to branch out in all the other fields…. We are willing to take on those who do have that expertise and support their efforts…. Of course it is a deal where your project will have to support itself, you are running a business within a business…. Can’t make it profitable, can’t put all the game plan coherently on paper, can’t make the numbers work, can’t make it support itself, then well we are not interested either….You will fail no matter what you try…. If you can put it together and are the man or the team that can do it all, but only lack the opportunity then we will negotiate on how we can work together. No other company is making this offer especially when it comes to sharing the profits of your endeavors.

Final thought

Being anonymous has advantages of being able to say anything you like without necessarily the repercussions of everyone knowing who said it…. The drawback is all the reputation, experience, and atta boys you may have earned in the past are no longer valid or even known to most. Your reputation, your knowledge and your experience only shows in what you write or have written…. You can imply you might be somebody, have vast experience, in the know, and/ or numerous other things…. However the only ability to convince anyone of anything anonymously lies is in the strength, conviction and ability of your writing…. To those of us whom you are anonymous to, your writing is all the information we have to decide if you know what you are talking about or not, and whether or not you are even literate. If you chose not to post at all and only lurk, no one knows anything about you or what you think… I suppose that could be prudent in some instances as the proverb that comes to mind is “better to keep silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.”

Since I put my thoughts out here every day, you can draw your own conclusions…. Whether I am a fool or not…Two choices here, either Ratpack can try and work out how we can collectively help each other or you can continually try to knock me off the stump…..-rob

[Pops]

I will vouch for Natch, he knows what he is talking about. But who am I to say? You don't know me, either. We are all here, at least most of us, for the same purposes, let's not be too thin skinned. If you are, you will have hell in the workplace, and I don't care where that is, in Bokacheeta Idaho, or Bumfuk Egypt, or anywhere else. Have a beer:cheers , express your opinion, and get the job done. Thank God and our military, past and present, for that right.

Amen and pass the biscuits.

[Natch]

Holy cow.
Now Pops is standing up for me? I might be better off without that kind of backing. :kib:
Have one on me Pops.
:cheers

[Hardline Rob]

read in open forum.