So you want to work in the trades overseas

[The Wild Rover]

This could be debated for such a long time, but I thought I would put into words, starting from the bottom, and working my way up over several weeks...so the first of this series is the apprenticeship. I will not labor what it takes to be a good apprentice, because every person is different, and we have all had good and bad tradesmen along the way. You take a little from each, good or bad. I will add that you never should stop asking questions, and consider yourself fortunate to learn something new everyday in the trades, because it never stops changing. It is a long process to become a journeyman, even longer for the foreman, superintendant, and project manager. More and more of the contractors want proof of training and liscensing. This should only be expected, and rightly so in my opinion. This will keep the riff-raff from taking our work. We've seen over the past several years, guys that claim to be skilled, only to see that they were basically slipping through the cracks and taking the work, getting paid the same as the skilled hands. This must stop, and an apprentice, or helper, should only be paid as such... So on that note, here is the first in a long series...

AN APPRENTICESHIP...
An apprenticeship is a voluntary training program that has proven to be highly effective for centuries. Throughout recorded history, people have been transferring skills from one generation to another in some form of apprenticeship. Today the need for skilled tradesmen or craftsmen is more critical than ever. Apprenticeship is a training system that produces highly skilled workers who are able to meet the demands of employers who are competing in a highly competitive environment. Each and every day the U.S. economy continues to come under increasing competitive global pressure. In that regard, the U.S. finds itself economically competing with the entire manufacturing world. The most important asset in today’s competitive market is a highly trained and skilled workforce. One significant way to create and maintain a skilled workforce is through a highly effective on-the-job apprenticeship training program.
The unique feature of the apprenticeship concept is that on-the-job training is supplemented with technical classroom instruction. Apprentices work under the supervision of qualified journeymen to develop their chosen trade or skill and learn the techniques, materials, and equipment associated with that trade. Classroom instruction that provides training in theoretical and technical aspects of the trade is required. Apprentices are generally evaluated every six months and receive pay raises based upon their proven progress in skill development as well as their classroom proficiency. When a registered apprenticeship program sponsor verifies that the apprentice has fulfilled all requirements of the training program, the Department of Labor will issue a certificate of completion. This nationally recognized certification is verification that the completing apprentice is a fully qualified skilled Journeyman in the trade. This is more and more being required, and rightly so, by the contractors that do the overseas work.
BENEFITS OF REGISTERED APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAMS
For employers, benefits include:
· Skilled workers trained to industry/employer specifications to
produce quality results
· Reduced turnover
· Increased productivity
· Industry's need to remain competitive by investing in the
development and continuous upgrade of the skills of its workforce
· Reduced worker compensation costs due to an emphasis on safety
training
· Compliance with federal and state equal opportunity requirements
facilitated
For apprentices and journeymen, benefits include:
· Jobs that usually pay higher wages...add this with a TS clearance, and the
skill level should match the money!!!
· Higher quality of life and skills versatility
· Portable credentials recognized nationally and often globally
· Opportunity for college credit and future degrees
to and sustain economic growth
· Decreased need to employ workers because of clearance level, not based on
skill. To me this is number one, you should be hired because of your level of
trade knowledge and experience, not because you can get a clearance!!!
APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING COSTS VS. END BENEFITS
Registered apprenticeship programs are operated by private and public sectors - employer, employer association or joint labor/management sponsors, usually a Trade Union. Program sponsors pay most of the training costs while also progressively increasing wages to their apprentices as they gain skills. Registered apprenticeship can be competency based or time based depending on the program sponsor's needs. Registered apprenticeship programs range from one to six or more years in length. Because the content of the training program is driven by industry needs, the end result is workers with skills that are in high demand.

[MrBOOCH]

Couldn't agree more Rover. It gets really tiresome constantly watching incompetent slobs bang away at various items on the job and come away being paid the same and then to have to engage in the REWORK factor....

Apprenticeships are there for a reason.

[redfishnc]

I work at plants both union and non-union. We use to see an obvious difference between the two. While I think that difference is still there the gap has narrowed. I would hear all too often, Joe Smith is the only one we have that can do that or Frank is out today so we have no one that can get that done. Maybe the apprenticeships have changed and less is required but the bottom line is the craftsmanship is just not there any longer whether they are union or non-union and the expertise gap has narrowed. We have to get these young people in diverse skills training. How many pipefitters today know how to run a threading machine? How many pipefitters were ever trained with torches? Many, not all, learn one aspect of the job and they are rewarded with journeyman wages. Partly I suspect due to the high demand for talented and experienced people. It is across the board in the industries I see.

[The Wild Rover]

I disagree... And to make such a general statement that the apprentices are worse now, just shows me the type of people that are passing through the programs on the plant type projects you have been on. I disagree, 100% with your statement. I have to agree that I have seen projects like nuke plants, and steel mill re-builds, power plants, etc. where you have crews of cable tray installers, and cable pullers...for the entire project, and they call themselves journeymen after their accredited time, schooling, and on the job training, only to see them fail because they have no clue about the Code, or any other aspect of the trade outside of the project they were on . And I have seen guys that get their journeyman's card through online, at home Sally Struther's style programs, only to laugh at their wire pulling schedules, and their work STANDARDS as if they had a clue. But to say they are all getting worse....You should blame the journeyman for not teaching, you should blame the foreman for not guiding, you should blame the superintendant for not improving the project conditions (materials, manpower, tools, design directions, leadership) and you should blame yourself, for sounding like every angry, cranky, don't wanna speak up cause I might be next down the road, selfish old timer we all have had to work with. If the young people are not improving, and the education is getting worse, it's time to look at how you are teaching these people...not everyone can teach...and not everyone can be taught. I think to paint the situation with such a broad brush, only fans the flames of what we are trying to defeat, Ignorance. I mean you NO DISRESPECT Sir, I just dis-agree with your opinion...and your are entitled to it, that the whole industry is going to hell in a handbasket...we have ourselves to blame if that is the issue. As I said before, and I quote myself from the beginning of this column...
"Registered apprenticeship programs are operated by private and public sectors - employer, employer association or joint labor/management sponsors, usually a Trade Union. Program sponsors pay most of the training costs while also progressively increasing wages to their apprentices as they gain skills. Registered apprenticeship can be competency based or time based depending on the program sponsor's needs. Registered apprenticeship programs range from one to six or more years in length. Because the content of the training program is driven by industry needs, the end result is workers with skills that are in high demand. "

...and add the Contractors in there too if that is the case, because most fund apprenticeship programs so that they have the competent people making them money. I know of no contractor that likes to piss away earnings on re-work. I obviously do not share your opinion.

[redfishnc]

I painted with such a broad brush because I think it is an industry wide issue. To say that everyone is in this boat is to stray from my general statement. I think that you and I agree more than I first thought when I read your reply. I placed no blame as I don't feel qualified to unilaterally examine all the issues. I certainly do not feel the whole industry is going to hell in a handbasket. Much to the contrary I feel the industry is undergoing a resurgence of work we have not seen in many years. It is a golden opportunity to bring young blood into power sectors that a few years ago I would have been extremely hesitant to suggest to anyone. I don't "blame" anyone for this condition. To say that I am angry is you telling me how I feel when in reality this is the best it has been for years in construction. I am one of the happiest contractors on this planet. I have stuck in there through thick and then. We are all to blame for the training that workers receive. We know that if we don't promote them fast enough the next company will. Many companies are paying for training for those that want it. The downside to this 'could' produce workers trained in a narrowly defined field that could hurt their employment opportunities down the road. I think you took a lot of literary license with my post. I think that many of the craftsman today are not as diversely skilled (trained) as their older brothers were (blame whom you will). We all pay for these less skilled workers but when supply is ahead of demand many of the old rules change. Unhappy, hardly. This is best times of my life....

[The Wild Rover]

That was a good post. I can see we'll have plenty to talk about. I wish there were more members that would post like that.:cheers

[mexfishguide]

I enjoy such a good exchange of opinion's, however there is good and bad in
both post's.

In my apprenticeship days, seem's a 100 years ago, we had to change company's ever 6 months, this was to do the best possibe to get more
deverse training and experience. You could be on a project working OT
with a year left, but you had to leave after 6 month's, you may go to a company with no work, but you change anyway. You attended night school
the required hours, pay raise at 6 month periods, if you had the required school and work hours. At the end of the 4 or 5 years training, you only had a few times to fail the jr test, if you could not pass you were out of the program.

Some guys until the rule was changed, would stay a 4th year apprentice forever, 80% of jr pay with no responsibility's.

The information and training is there it is up to the person to take advantage of it.

Now there are programs and areas, where people specialize in one area
example electrician welder, elec. emt installer elec. controll's installer, etc.
when I would go into a new area some times they would hand you a list to fill out what you could do, at time's & places the list would be 60 or 70 different
things, I would put a big x across the whole page and write " journeyman wireman ". I have seen more non-union guys with the limited eaxperience then I have union guys. The non union guys, some are very good at what their experience has been in.

Controll your anger, overseas we have no union / non-union problems, and we should have none on ratpack.:blahslap :blahslap

We should however, have a fair way to if tell if a person has it or not, the better the ratpack crafts are the more we are thought of and the more work we will get. And at a higher rate of pay.

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

[redfishnc]

if you are as old as i am the reason it seems like a hundred years ago is because we are about half way there. i loved construction work right off the bat. i knew i found my way. now i finally live at home again and live (and work) to fish. don't know where you are guiding but one of my favorite haunts is port mansfield, tx. great redfishing. great redfishing here in nc too.
i look forward to the post. my only out of the country stints were in canada, an hot topic for another time...
tightlines to you,
redfishnc

[Pops]

Right on MEXFISH, about union - non-union not being a problem. I did hear some discussions, but never heated ones. Shouldn't be any different than Okies, Arkies, and those guys from Baja Oklahoma that call themselves Texans, getting along, right? Qualified or not qualified is a huge issue though.
One might have limited experience and training, but if what he/she has is just what you are needing, then they are a good fit. But how often do they actually need a "one skill" person? Better off being well-rounded.

Heck, I am not even qualified to give an opinion on electricians, but I know what I have seen both state side and overseas. You don't always get a good picture from the outside looking in. Most electricians seem to think telecom is putting wire in a rack or sittin on a bucket terminating. This is only a VERY small part of telecom, and high-school kids could do it. I could list all the training and courses I had to take to get where I am today, but it would take SEVERAL pages. Not a lot of that training is now relevant, as I am sure the other true telecom guys on the site can agree. A lot of us know the RCDDDDD who got his certification with about 3 weeks classroom training and wouldn't know telecom if it sneaked up and bit him in the ass, couldn't tie a knot in a muletape. Hell, he didn't know what muletape was. Not necessarily his fault but it is what it is. Being an electrician doesn't mean you can put a faceplate on a light switch, and telecom doesn't mean you can terminate cat6 wire.

This must be the forum to get windy. Now go Pawk the Ka.

[Gabriele]

Mule tape, how many mules do they need to get a 1000 foot roll of Mule Tape? :lol: How many cats do they need to get cat gut for tennis rackets

[The Wild Rover]

Anyhow,
This article is not about union and non-union. It's from a program I know well, because I went through the IBEW apprenticeship. I am strong pro union, but if you are not, so what. I say, get the education, and maybe we can both learn from each other. I don't want guys just showing up on the job, and because they were radio operators in high school, trying to tell apprenticeship educated, experienced Journeymen that they are tradesmen, and this is how to do the work. Lack of knowledge in the trades KILLS!!!

[mexfishguide]

Yes, the lack of ability to perform the trade you are working in, condems the actual craftsman to low pay due to having to redo your lousy work. Union /
non union has nothing to do with it. However I am strong union, but will never while on work overseas hold that against anyone.:wtf

If I had a tool buddy that could not do the work, I will ask for another tool buddy. If he was an apprentice working for apprintice wages I would gladly help him. Do not ask me to train a man drawing the same wages as I.

All these suppose to be and wanta bes, is one reason the overseas contractors are screaming we can not get enough good crafts people to man the job. Crazy, all they have to do is pay a decent wage for craftsmen doing the job and a lower wage for helpers. It burns my butt to see a craftsman
doing the job with a warm body beside him drawing the same money, bullshit.

Why do I believe better craftsmen should get more money then warm bodys?
While I was working days as apprentice and going to school at night for 4 or 5years, the warm body was hanging around doing nothing, hell no I don't want him drawing the same money as I and other qualified craftsmen.

That same money for everyone is crap, that is socialism brought down from
stupid believe that all are equal, ( in the supreme beings eyes ) yes we are, but not on the work site. Training, education, experience, & yes quality, will come out on every job!!!!

Take Care
Mexfishguide:cheers

[Gabriele]

I guess the union's some have worked through provided the training, however mine did not. The company I worked for for 30 years did and I continued the next 8 years.I do agree though it shouldn't be union/non- union, I believe that in each of us the ethic to do the job correctly and as professualy as possible is what sets us apart from those who "hide" behind union contracts or smooze the bosses in non-union jobs. I doubt that most on this site would do less quality union or non union, it's something in us that demands us to do the best possible.

[paintermike]

I guess the union's some have worked through provided the training, however mine did not. The company I worked for for 30 years did and I continued the next 8 years.I do agree though it shouldn't be union/non- union, I believe that in each of us the ethic to do the job correctly and as professualy as possible is what sets us apart from those who "hide" behind union contracts or smooze the bosses in non-union jobs. I doubt that most on this site would do less quality union or non union, it's something in us that demands us to do the best possible.
I want to say "Amen" on what you said. PainterMike has worked the same way for 32 years. He is a firm believer in doing things right on any job he is on.He was trained in the old school. We have seen to many times persons who kissup or smooze the main headleaders and screw everything and everyone around them!But that should never change our ways or how we think. Some where down the road it always comes back. PainterMikes Betterhalf

[mrbreeze38]

One of the biggest things I noticed is that no one comes down on the new guys anymore. When I first got into the trade after school, I worked with an old man who used to chew my ass if I did something half-assed or installed it incorrectly. Some of these new kids come in and right away are learning bad work habits. If I goofed off I used to get my balls busted about it. Also, just because a guy went to college doesn't make him a journeyman right off the bat, hands on takes years to learn.

[The Wild Rover]

Yeah I agree, Hands on is the number one teacher. All a school does is teach you theory, accepted practices, CODE, rules, methods, calculations, ect. Hands on is for Journeyman instruction and supervision, school is for the specifications of the applied discipline.This is necessary to understand why the journeyman told you to use # 2 THHN cable.
But todays kids are much more spoiled than we were. It's an era of instant and disposable... Instant info at your fingertips via the web, no more people going to the movies, it's on tv, instant sex, instant knowledge, throw away the kitchen appliance because it's easier to buy a new one...where did all the shoe makers go? You don't need them because you just toss them and buy new ones...so the shoemakers are running embassy jobs!!! If you chew these younger people out, you are invading their space, and not allowing them to mature...remeber, this is the generation of no more "Tag" being played at school because it is stressful being "it", and not fair for lilttle Johnnies development. They get you fired for abuse, and remain on the job till the end, go figure:wtf
Hell, I had guys scream in my face, and now that I look back, I probably deserved most of it. I see these guys today, and I'd buy them a beer, because they made me the tradesman I am today. Granted, I have learned to teach differently, and only yell after saying something the 3rd time...ask Jester, he's seen me mad. Some guys pick it right up, like Jester, and then theres the stooopid ones, like R_x S., an electrical helper from Moscow. R_x will always be stoopid. I hear he is in Beijing now, as a journeyman. He could not grasp a ruler "theory", even though I had made him a cheat sheet with 1/8, 1/4, 3/8,1/2" and so on...he said once it was 16 and 9- 1/8th's...stoopid, stoopid, stoopid. This is what we would like to avoid in working on our embassies.
Times have changed, and most contractors do not want to hire the skilled and pay for it, instead thinking profit, and foolishly hiring warm bodies and paying for it in the long run because they have project over-runs, guys get hurt because of poor quality/safety/lack of know how...the list goes on and on.

[mesquitoe]

I have seen "kin folk" on overseas sites that could not read a tape measure, supt`s who did not hold a trade license and did not have a clue except how to bullshit and suck whatever was on the way up the ladder. These sad facts hold true for stateside work union or non-union.:wtf
The Company`s that do the hiring should have competency testing before hiring and do some reference checking.
Not everyone is made of the right stuff for the trades. Alot of folks get into the trades just trying to make a buck. Those that are made of the right clay and get the training, learn all aspects of the trade and give 100% will make a good hand. Those that are not made of the right stuff for the trades should move on to something else or be forced out.
I agree that hands on is the best training. I would however recommend to anyone just starting in the trades to enroll in a trades apprenticeship program that offers training in a classroom environment and OJT. This is the fastest way to acquire the basic skills required.
I decided to do something to help turn out better tradesman after years of seeing unqualified people inthe field.
I became an instructor at our local plumbing and pipefiitting apprenticeship. This is a five year program. If the student in my class can not complete the course work they do not pass. Upon completion of this program plumbers are licensed journeyman with med gas and water protection endorsements in addition to classes in trade math,theory,rigging,blueprint reading,gas installations,code,backflow prevention,OSHA,brazing,welding,auto cad to name a few.
In the great state of Texas all plumbers apprentices are require to register with the state and acquire 8000 hours (4 years)working in the trade before the are elgible to take the journeyman test to get thier license.
There are some good things happening to improve our work force. We must all do our part to improve the trades.
"There is no one smarter than a 5th year apprentice or dumber than a 1st year journeyman".:lol:

[redfishnc]

i went into apprenticeship in '71. i wanted to do it. i wanted to learn how to do everything. don't get me wrong i wanted to get money too but time and tenure was the only way to get a raise. i have not been in the field in 15 yrs. and i still miss it. a rosebud in one hand a 3 pound hammer in the other. i "volunteered' to swage jacketed pipe every time a drawing came through the shop. torchwork was trying to be the best in the shop. i don't see much fire in the young guys today. i work in scheduling today at the nukes and we have the same issues. guy comes in to train and six months later he leaves and is making as much as me. he may not last as long as me but he will just keep 'faking it until you make it'. damn. i think i am turning into a cynical old fart.
you men have a great memorial day and don't forget what the memorial is all about.

redfishnc

[mattsindian]

:cheers :rockwoot: Like that Bucky Covingtton song and George Jones song says,, "It was a difrent world, and Who's gonna fill their shoes?" It is good to see you old school fellas in here that were from that teaching. I wasn't aware that ya'll were aware that your descendents (us 40 somethin yr olds) were sufferin' fm these new young kid smart asses sending up dirty emails when we chew them and we get fired for it. The world has changed, I enjoy working underneath old school mgt. and beside ya'll in the field overseas. Thank you for keepin' it real.

[CFL]

but what happens when someone call a company that is so called looking for people and the op manager doesnt return the call cuz hes been writing long winded bullshit on rat pack

[mattsindian]

silly rabbit trix and cartoons r for kids!!!:lol: :moon

[CFL]

sorry i dont suck the holy pole you prick ive been on here along time but i guess now im not aloud to express my rights on rat pack if its against a consule member and i grew up on a farm joined the military to get more from my dad who was a vet it wasnt for the disipline, i had that when i was ten, ive worked with the rover and i enjoyed his company at cheers in armenia, but if someone calls his company that is asking for people then return the call and the youth is what is going to keep this shit going REMEMBER THAT

[The Wild Rover]

sorry i dont suck the holy pole you prick ive been on here along time but i guess now im not aloud to express my rights on rat pack if its against a consule member and i grew up on a farm joined the military to get more from my dad who was a vet it wasnt for the disipline, i had that when i was ten, ive worked with the rover and i enjoyed his company at cheers in armenia, but if someone calls his company that is asking for people then return the call and the youth is what is going to keep this shit going REMEMBER THAT

First off, we all have our own opinions..and yes, sometimes I am wrong. I opted for the different path, which as it later turned out, did not include the military. We each choose our own destiny. Which includes the path we are on today. This is to say that some of the people working overseas are not properly trained. It does not mean that the training cannot be found, it just means that working overseas is not the place to do it, or for some of these guys to expect it. In a place where we are all getting paid the same wage...it's just not right, or fair. Yes, I do have to train most of the people on various systems, but before I do start to train them, I am confident they have a solid understanding, history, and training in the trade for which they were hired in the first place, and they are hired on and paid according to their ability. You have the right to criticize me, and you are allowed to disagree...after all, it's only our opinions being expressed, nothing is written in stone. We can agree that we each share our own opinion, and try to respect the other person's, especially if we disagree with it.
Second off, what phone call. If you called and talked to my secretary, and left a message for me, I would return it. I have been out of the office for several weeks, on personal leave, and If you left a message on my voice mail, you might as well call again as the phones and service provider have been changed out entirely. If we had the work I would hire guys in a minute, but as it turns out, we are waiting for the responces from the General Contractors, the Gov't, and the jobs we do have lined up do not start until September, and are already to be manned by current employees. Please call again CFL. I'll be in the office on Friday.